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Thank you for visiting. This site is dedicated to exposing the Mind Control, Manipulation, Deception, Spiritual and Emotional Abuse, Heresy, Legalism (“Phariseeism”), and Authoritarianism behind the Independent Fundamental Baptist Denomination (IFB). I was a member of a spiritually abusive Independent Fundamental Baptist Church for a little over 25 years. The focus of this site, therefore, is the issue of spiritual abuse and deception in the IFB churches. This site also has a secondary emphasis on other Christian churches, but will mostly focus on the IFB Denomination. Like others who have similar sites, the reason for concentrating on the Independent Fundamental Baptist Denomination is simply due to personal experience.

Most Baptist churches are very similar to the IFB. Some are a little different and may be less strict or have different stances on scripture, but for the most part they are all very similar. I can really only speak from my experiences so that is why this site is singling out the IFB.

Much of what you will read here comes directly from my personal experience. Much of the information contained within this site can be generalized to other churches, but not all of it. I will let you, the reader, determine which applies to you and your unique situation. I’ve been accused of making the fallacy of hasty generalizations or that I’m simply over generalizing based on just my experience. While I can’t say that every IFB church is run in a spiritually abusive manner since that would be an impossible claim to knowledge, I can easily infer, based on my experience with multiple IFB churches and based on others who I’ve talk to or shared their stories on this site, that most are.

Since leaving the IFB in 1999, I have encountered many people who have come from not only IFB churches, but also other Christian churches with similar experiences of spiritual abuse. Although I understand that good things still happen in IFB churches and that many people are brought to the Lord and salvation, I still believe that the IFB operates much like a cult. Afterall, God can use a cult to bring people to him.

Because of the definition of a cult I can’t say that the IFB is a cult exactly, however, it does have some cult characteristics which I will expose. For example the IFB churches that I have experienced, believe that a person can not truly be saved if they read a version of scripture other than the King James Version.

Part of the definition of a cult is “a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist” – Websters Dictionary While on the surface the IFB seems to be a traditional Christian organization, within the walls of the church there is false and extreme doctrine, heavy manipulation and mind-control of its members, and manipulation of the Word of God that hurts people. It is not the intention of this site to hurt or defame anyone. I will do my best to not single out a particular church. It is the sole intention of this site to bring into the light the hurtful and dangerous practices of the IFB. To the right please find links to many of the false teachings of the IFB.

I encourage you to speak your defense and your experiences of the IFB as well as your support of the information on this site. Finally, please feel free to participate in our monthly survey (poll changes will depend on the amount of interest this site generates). As you read through this site, please remember that it’s not the church you are attending that saves. Only God has the power to judge a person’s heart and save him/her. Be careful to not give the IFB or any religious organization for that matter, the praise and glory that only belongs to God. Keep in mind that even though people may make known the good things that are being done in their church or religious group does mean that there aren’t abusive things happening and does not give them the right to dismiss or excuse that abuse. It is wrong and dangerous to ignore/dismiss abuse on the grounds that good is also happening.

When discussing this with a good friend of mine he told me not to throw the baby out with the bath water, implying that I should just filter out the bad stuff that I see/experience and keep the good stuff. When it comes to church, however, I find it unacceptable that there should be such “bad stuff”. Are we not supposed to be an example of Christ to the world? I’m convinced that much of the world’s difficulties, including Atheism, is a direct result of this “bad stuff” from the church.

I have spoken with many Atheists who explain to me reasons behind their decision to become an Atheists and they are very similar to the experiences I had growing up in my IFB church. The analogy that works better here is the baker who mixed a teaspoon of dog poop in his brownie mix.

Once the brownies were mixed, baked and completed, it became impossible to know where the brownies ended and the dog poop began. Even with such a tiny amount of dog poop the brownies were uneatable. And so it is with the abusive church. When a person experiences spiritual abuse from those who are supposed to imitate Christ, it becomes impossible to separate the abuse from the healthy components of the church. Am I saying that the church and the people in the church should be perfect?

Of course not. Pastors and church goers are human, however, the church should be a place where humanness is met with the Grace of God not the judgmental legalism of the Pharisees. A good friend of mine told me once that people who were abused have a tendency to shy away from the abuser and the object used to abuse. So for example a child who was abused by his father who used a belt to beat him, will forever equate his father and that belt with abuse.

The same is true for spiritual abuse. When a particular church or organization abuse a person and they use the Bible to perform the abuse, you can deduce what will happen. The one thing that a person needs to heal from an abusive situation, the Bible, is the very thing that person can’t turn to because it was the object of the abuse. There are verses in the Bible that still to this day I can’t read without re-experiencing the abuse again. The problem is that they are the very verses I need to help in the healing process.

That is what makes spiritual abuse one of the most horrific problems in today’s society. If you wish to find out more about me, contact me or sign my guest book you may find those links at the top of this site as well. Thanks again for visiting and we hope that this information has been helpful.

@ “And guess what? I bet you dont care about what is happening within the calvary chapel church huh? Only the “IFB” denomination.” Actually I do care about the abuse in the Calvery Chapel denomination.

If you had taken the time to read the site and taken time to try and understand me and the purpose of this site before you made your attacks then you’d know that this site and my mission is more about spiritual abuse than a focus on the IFB. I simply write about the IFB because that’s where my experiences have been. This is discussed very clearly on this very post.

I’m not sure how you missed that. “Nobody cares about your experiences and self pitty parties you all have here. Just leave the church, join another one and be happy. Because nobody, nobody, nobody cares!!!” Boy I could have a field day with this. Let’s see what responses I can come up with 1.

I guess you’re a “nobody” then? You obviously cared enough to write a comment about not caring. You must be onmiscient then? You really know what everyone in the world cares about?

That’s a pretty awesome claim. Since when is dealing with abuse a “self pitty party”? That’s pretty insensitive don’t you think?

Millions of hits to the site, thousands of comments and shared experiences that’s hardly “nobody” don’t you think? How did you miss the thousands of comments from people who do care?

Willfull ignorance would be my guess. I care, are you calling me a “nobody”? That’s not very nice.

Are you calling God a “nobody”? That’s pretty disrespectful. If you ever experience abuse I hope that nobody tells you that you’re just having a self pitty party or to just get over it and move on and just be happy. Just because you’re an insensitive, rude, uncaring, unsympathetic, ignorant, etc prick who just had to let us know that YOU don’t care doesn’t mean that everyone feels that way.

You have an ironic way of letting us know that you don’t care. What I don’t care about is that YOU don’t care about this. I guess I should take down the site then since “nobody, nobody, nobody cares”.

Oh OK, I didn’t realize that “nobody, nobody, nobody cares”. Thanks for letting me know. I guess I’ll stop blogging about the IFB then.

Thanks for your help! Even if “nobody, nobody, nobody cares” I’d still write about this because it’s important and interesting to me. OK, so anyway I’m moving on since this is apparently an exercise in futility.

Just consider that when you say that “nobody care” you aren’t only insulting me, but the thousands of people who have come here to agree with this site and it’s contents and share their own similar experiences. You are also, by default, in this assertion making an awesome claim to knowledge, one that demands at least evidence (of which you didn’t provide) if not proof. I was searching the web about evangelizing and ended up here with the article “Roman Road Deception”. I am not a Baptists or ever was an “IFB”. Never heard of them and dont care about them.

Who really cares? Only you guys. I use to go to Calvary chapel and found a whole forum just like this one about the calvary chapel churches.

And guess what? I bet you dont care about what is happening within the calvary chapel church huh? Only the “IFB” denomination. Nobody cares about your experiences and self pitty parties you all have here. Just leave the church, join another one and be happy.

Because nobody, nobody, nobody cares!!! Trudy, “Amazing too how this group thinks they have this all resolved so they can move forward like nothing happenedhmmmm.thinking that its not all resolved” I completely agree with you. When I was in the IFB, it was very common to just sweep things under the rug and pretend that they didn’t happen. If someone did find out that some wrong had been done, instead of dealing with it, they do damage control. There might have been others who this woman influenced in the same way. It’s hard to know until the first person speaks out. Unfortunately, the victim has to live with the consequences of other people’s actions for many years, while the perpetrator goes on with life.

I’m glad you’re courageous enough to take a stand! Trudy-I’m glad you have gotten through this with your faith intact, so many faced with these same circumstances, I’m sure would have tossed it in and given up completely on faith/God! The way this has been handled is so “typical” in IFB circles. I’m a retired police officer, and I’m wondering if criminal charges could have been placed against the pastor’s wife for facilitating this arrangement? I’m not sure, even in my state what, if anything she could have been charged with, but I’m thinking of something along the lines of “contributing to the delinquency of a minor(s). But so much time has passed that’s probably not a viable option at this point.

But I am still very concerned of any other kids that she may be in contact with, and if she is in a position of authority over any of them? I know you want this to come to light.

Have you considered contacting 60 minutes or some other news shows, not sure if you want that type of coverage or if your son does, and I don’t know if that would be the best thing for all involved. One of the things that upsets me so much is that the way the IFB is set up (similar to the Tina Anderson case) it allows folks to manipulate the system to take advantage of people, in fact, power-hungry folks are drawn to the IFB like moths to a flame, because they know what kind of power is available there!! God bless Trudy, sending prayers your way, you don’t mention if you are associated with a church now, but I do hope you have some REAL Christians around you to help you through this painful situation. Greg – I am saved. I know Jesus Christ not only as my Saviour, but as the Lord of my life.

I did and still do know how incredibly amazing it is that Jesus sacrificed for me, like I was his only child. I know how depraved our old nature is and am wise enough to know that I need to feed my new nature. I know how important it is to examine myself to be sure my motives and actions are pleasing to God. I can say that I got saved due to wicked circumstances in my life such as an abusive husband and his family.

It seemed that even that long ago evil people enjoyed manipulating and abusing thier position of power. I submitted to a supposedly saved husband until it turned real bizarre. God doesn’t expect a woman to submit to what I had to. So after many years of prayer, fasting, and submitting I divorced him. Feeling that I had saved my kids from that type of lifestyle I find out I handed them to a much more wicked situation. So I look at what has happened to my kids and it sickens me. All I can do is know that I did what was rightand I know that.

These people that have covered sin all of thier lives should have never been in the roles they were/are still in to be able to hurt my kids. You are righthow many other situations has she orchestrated and how many more will she. She actually got up and apologized to this church in Iowa this weekguess they got it all right now in thier own little world.

His followers (not the Lord’s followers since that building has been so void of truth for so long) have actually voiced that, well she said she was sorry. OMG – guess they haven’t sought God’s face in like forever if ever. Never mind I Tim 3:4 and 5, One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Afterall I’m just a divorced woman that you USE to be able to control and manipulate. Amazing too how this group thinks they have this all resolved so they can move forward like nothing happenedhmmmm.thinking that its not all resolvedI am the one that you betrayed folks as well as my kids and ALL kids that walk/walked through those doors.

He calls himself a leader and turns his wife loose with a bunch of teenage boys and girls? No such a good ideayou would think he would know that about his wife by now. A couple of thoughts spring to mind. First I think of a single mom trying to do her best by her children and getting them into the church, and under the PROTECTION (laughs) of that church.

Then for the MOG’s wife to undermine your authority over your son on something so serious as facilitating a sexual relationship, with her daughter no less! (talk about living vicariously through your children) What I would be curious to know is if this pervert facilitated any “other” sexual trysts with kids under her control. You already said what I was thinking “this is a perfect example of a group of people following a man.” And this really is the main problem!!

There is too much authority given to the MOG, particularly in the IFB, this must be stopped. The main reason is because it is not scriptural! I was sickened by the pastor’s attitude, you could see he wanted this incident to stay under the rug.

And then of course the yes men, coming to his rescue, all much too familiar in IFB circles. My last thoughts, you don’t mention your personal relationship with the Lord, after all of this, but I simply want to encourage you to lean on and trust God! My heart goes out to you and your son, and this girl, the kind of manipulation these kids went through, and in a supposed Christian environment, just incredible! I wasn’t even part of an IFB church until I was on my own with young children.

I listened to the leaders of IFB churches as to how to raise these children. Afterall what did I know? A divorced woman. When you are in the middle of it it is like you can’t see the forest for the trees. OMG – now I find out the pastor’s wife (behind my back mind you) set up my 16 year old son with her 16 year old daugther. Supplied sex ed books (becasue after all her husband wash pushing being pure until marriage so the teenagers were not supplied such materials in the church or school), condoms, locations to have sex (her home and a hotel), AND most importantly – justification!!!

She told them that in God’s eyes they were married. Now many years later I find out about this.

My son takes it before the church. The woman admits it in a letter, the pastor admits knowing about this, and the daugther admits her mom facilitated it. ALL documented on this audio. Listen to this pathetic audio as a “man of God” justifies not having his house in order.

Even goes to the extent of calling my son a “molester.” I know the definition of a molester. The question cecil is do you know what its called when your family is this much of a mess? Do you know what a “man” is labeled that can’t keep his family in order? Do you know what a female is called that hands your daugther to a teenage boy all the while decieving the single mother that entrusted his life to you people? FYI – it wouldn’t be crazy, or unstable that’s what you call anyone that has the guts to stand up for what is right. This is a perfect example of a group of people following a manthis church actually voted to keep this guy in as thier. Amazing enought the children of this group of ostriches are NOT in church.

They have had it with the schaaps and a whole laundry list of coverups. They want nothing to do with church. You know if this guy that calls himself a pastor, since biblically he isn’t qualified with his family being such a mess – actually read the whole bible he wouldn’t need to have a church vote on whether or not he remain as thier pastor he’d have enough you know what to get out.

But after all as this whole situation reveals this has NOTHING to do with God. This has to do with ego and pride and a bunch of followers so spinless they can’t do what is right. Like God doesn’t see this? Come on You gotta listen to this meeting.what a joke. And I’ve email Christian Law Association twice to get no reply.

So if we can’t get this good old boy’s club to be held accountable using good old boy’s clubs let’s get this out to everyone! And you know what?

I could care less what that group of people call me or anyone else calling them out. Afterall, as this audio will show.their lack of discernment is the only thing they do possess. What is the difference between what I discuss in my posts and when many churches recommend colleges and universities supported by their denominations or affiliations? I mentioned a company recruiter at a job fair. A company recruiter will tell the applicant to visit as many booths of other companies as possible.

One will look at the resume to see if they are hiring for the position or qualifications posted on a resume. Many denominations do offer their members tuition discounts and scholarships. This is common.

What is different is that the minister does not forbid a student from considering another school. Also most ministers at most healthy churches I’ve visited will not single out an individual publicly either or definitely will not share private information in public without consent. One must ask if the person giving consent understands what one is doing and is capable of giving that consent. Also one must pay attention to signs that a person might be reluctant to discuss this matter and should not push it and respect the individual’s decision.

Another area where I feel there are abuses are in the sciences and math. I think those students have special gifts that others do not have, especially in the more advanced applications. I know there is a lot of mention of the gifts in the Bible in the book of Acts. We think of “spiritual gifts.” We don’t think of scientific or scientific people as a population in need of reach. We think of foreign c ountries. We live in a country which is very high-tech. I think it’s very important that churches realize that high tech students do have a place in the church as well as in the secular world and that these gifts must be developed wherever they exist.

If we exclude the scientifist or mathmetician from our church by only referring students to schools with arts and humanities programs, we don’t develop that gift. That person we exclude could be a missionary outreach to the science and math community. That person may be needed in our own schools whether they are public or private.

That person goes out to the job world and can be a ministry in one’s personal witness by one’s actions in a secular community. That person needs a college campus which is regionally and professionally accredited. Many do have medical programs. Medical school is only one aspect of the sciences.

I’m talking about other fields too. We think of not using gifts in respect to money or perhaps art and music. I think it expands to other areas, and in our high-tech continent, it expands to those who are endowed in the high-tech areas of science and math.

This can, overtime, cause one to lose interest in the fellowship with other Christians and with churches. Many schools do have religious organizations on or near campus too. Often many churches announce their graduates and list the schools where they are applying or attending or their alma maters after graduation. It’s not only important at graduation, but also during high school during preparation for college. Some programs require an early decision by a certain grade level.

I know there is a schism with many churches in respect to the sciences and maths. Also many teaches don’t know how to teach them in a way that they are comprehended or enjoyed by students. I like sports. Not everyone was created to be a college or professional athlete or even a performing artist.

I’d change the title of the former minister from the particular church I posted from ordained minister to IFB Campus recruiter. At that point in my life, while I was vaguely aware that college recruiters existed, I really made the association with recruiters in relationship tocollee and professional sports, not religion. As I look back in time though, many years later, his focus was primarily on either BJU or Hyles Anderson. Even many recruiters look at the student and try to learn a lot about the student prior to helping an individual find the best choice of a college or university which meets one’s needs. I got the impression he met the needs of the particular college campuses he was recruiting just like company recruiters seek applicants for a particular industry.

I am not talking about situations where a church is hiring somebody on the pastoral staff or as a teacher. In those situations, the applicant gives consent for background information to be shared about one’s academic background, job experience, and aspects of one’s faith and family. This is the information that often is disclosed when a committee and church consider candidates. I am mentioning situations where a church tries to restrict a person from leaving or perhaps transferring outside their network by damaging one’s reputation unnecessarily. While I wasn’t the victim, I was in the congregation and knew that the pastoral staff at this IFB Church should not have shared this information to the congregation when the individual was leaving the church. I realized something like this could happen to me.

I don’t think these churches realize that their members may see “The Writing on the wall”. It happens in secular situations too. There were two situations on the church level that happened that caused me to question everything and that’s when I left, but I left gradually.

I also knew had I stayed, there would have been intense pressure to either return to the same college and/or go to one of the others recommended by the church. I haven’t gone back to either the university or the church in over 30 years either.

I have been to churches that would not consider doing w hat was done in these two particular situations. I’m aware that this is a common practice among unlicensed pastors. If they were licensed, it wouldn’t be tolerated without disciplinary action. The basic attitude is “Don’t say anything. It didn’t happen to you. Don’t be concerned.” Another prevailing attitude is “If it’s the Lord’s work, we can do anything we please whether or not it’s the law.” Is this really what Romans 13 says? I question that.

We live in a Democratic Republic which gives us lots of freedoms. We can go to any church we want relatively easily also.

That’s not true in other parts of the world. The type of information I want d isclosed is the type of information that’s commonly listed on resumes. There are waivers in respect to when a professional counselor can contact the authorities if one believes the patient may be harmful to oneself or others; however, one should never contact the entire congregation and share information about employment, health, and mental illness with the congregation without the consent of the individual. Even when the individual provides consent, that could still put one on shaky legal ground. The best thing ministers can do would be to refer the matter of a professional state licensed psychiatrist. If the psychiatrist and attending physician find no other medical causes, then the person can be referred for counseling by a psychologist, medical social worker, nurse, or vocational rehab counselor, or college career counselor.

I have mixed feelings about group counseling on these situations. In some ways, it can help. But there may be people who are not yet ready for this who can’t be objective either cause they are so supportive or their situation or are so hostile to it. Many people who are recovering need a supportive environment that’s neutral. That’s not always easy to find. People want to help but may not know how to help. Sometimes it is necessary to relocate to get the help.

We didn’t have the internet back then so we couldn’t network with one another. College application fees vary so even if there are colleges who may work with students from a particular IFB school, it wasn’t easy to find out which ones did and apply to them.

The IFB groups would cut off their members entirely once they left. Then in some parts of the country that were very hostile, they would enter environments where they were basically treated in a way that ignored or tried to destroy that faith altogether. Some may feel this way. However, I think there are many who still want to have faith. When the school was constantly in the news in addition to having radio stations cut off their programs at least temporarily, which happened in the 1980s, one became very isolated. There are some who fared better than others if they had a supportive environment.

It wasn’t easy to find that supportive environment even when people wanted to provide it. Counselors had to have experience dealing with these issues. Also people feel uncomfortable talking about this. In some environments, counselors could get into trouble for even discussing religious issues too.

I think it’s important to put the entire situation in perspective with good as well as bad. Some may say there is no good. Some may say there is no bad. Most experiences in one’s lifetime have both. I’m sure I’ll hear criticism for this comment from those who find no bood or no bad. Sometimes something can seem psychological that actually has a physical origin. Things are not always what they seem to be, and it take s a professional counselor with medical surpervision and a medical background to be able to know when other referrals may be necessary as well as a definite thorough physical exam.

There can also be referred pain issues or even technology that differs in one region from another. In some of the mainline denominations, state licensure is necessary for ordained ministers. Some mainline denominations also have their own medical staff. In others, there may be situations which are separate. It’s really important to have a professional team approach which respects the individual’s confidentiality within professional boundaries. Iti also takes counselors in some cases that are trained to detect learning disabilities.

Some schools are better than others in working with students with learning disabilities. Some are more subtle than others as well. Many community colleges are quipped to detect and assist students with learning disabilities who may have compensated and made it through the system in elementary or high school. Many community colleges can be good bargains financially also and may be ideal for students who need to live near home and or may not know what they want to do.

This goes for private junior colleges too. Some schools may offer small classes with low student teacher ratios.

Many parents want to send their children to larger schools or whatever school somebody recommends but that’s not always the school that’s best for a teenagers. Sometimes a year or two working prior to going to school can help somebody appreciate the value of money or get a taste of working in different environments. I’m very skeptical of this one solution for all mentality I see.

EBR, I agree what you shared in your first paragraph. All those things come into play, I know from personal experience. It wasn’t until my third ‘christian’ counselor that I finally found one who understood cult dynamics (including aberrant religious groups) and could effectively address that aspect of my experience as well. This particular counselor had come out of a religious cult, and did have formal counseling training-licensed training. I think what Don said in #135 is true as well. I would want the cautions you mentioned, EBR, however, because I learned the hard way that counseling can be misguided or ill-informed. You asked if I would agree about any psychologist or psychiatrist being able to counsel what goes on in some of these churches.

I will say “No.” They will think the person seeking counsel is mentally il and may not realize that an individual has been taught to think this way in formal instruction or through the environment. This is especially true if one comes from another religion rather than Christianity. In some regions of the country, where a counselor has lots of experience with people from a particular group, one may understand this, in others, one may label the person by symptoms from a disease. It also depends on what attitude one has towards religious matters. Some believe religious matters play no part in psychology or psychiatry and others believe religious matters have a very important place in psychology. Some patients want psychology only and other patients want their spiritual matters addressed. It also depends on the support of one’s individual family and church setting.

These factors can and do vary depending on the person affected. In the 1950s and 1960s, denominations did not mingle together. Now, there is a lot more mingling between denominations as well as cooperation that didn’t exist before that time. The attacks on other denominations can be quite destructive at times. I think others though are beginning also to realize common areas of belief among the denominations and have learned to pull resources together for a common good in some cases. I come from an interdenimational and cross cultural setting so I’ve had to learn this over years.

I do understand what you are saying though. I prefer to live closer to the church I attend, either walking distance and or within a direct bus route. Many will travel a long distance though, especially if they live in remote areas and/or their family has attended a particular church or sometimes if they have specific ministries that they believe their families need. I believe that we have the ammendment that grants us freedom of speech and freedom of religion. I believe that we have people who have died and sacrificed to make this possible. I don’t want to lose either.

However, I do want disclosure. I think disclosure would give us information we need to make the decision that’s best for our own families. I also want to know the background of those instructing me. People have mixed feelings about honorary doctorate degrees and it’s a common practice both in the religious and secular world. Also others take many years to earn these degrees the traditional way. I do wish they would at least use an abbreviation such as HD.Ed., HD.Div., etc There are some institutions which have decided to ban the practice entirely.

I want to know the qualifications of the person I call doctor. I also assume a doctor has a license.

This isn’t always true. That can make a big difference in ethical practices and affiliations. In the political arena, one will probably find out once a person runs for public office or is connected to a national campaign. One doesn’t find out otherwise. I certainly didn’t know. I didn’t even know there was an honorary doctorate. My parents were college educated and were skeptical.

If I had known I was dealing with an honorary doctorate, I probably would have responded differently, but maybe not. I didn’t know I was dealing with an association either until about three years after I joined the church. I learned that actually at college, not at church.

A number os students from the same church learned that we were attending the wrong Sunday school and were told the following fall semester we needed to return to a different class, after our second year, maybe even longer. In respect to laws and traditions, I love the traditions at Christmas. It’s one of my favorite times of the year.

There is comfort and structure in laws. The problem though occurs when the practice of the law is so rigid that one can’t see any exception or waiver even when practically it might exist. This is why I used the sample of Jesus healing on the sabbath. He got in a lot of trouble for that too in the New Testament Days. The Pharisees and Saducees were always questioning Jesus and u sing the law to try to trick him.

I am not saying competetion is bad such as inthe marketplace or in sports. Iam stating the hideous religious turf wars that go on between denominations. Where on any given Sunday in America you witness the most divided day in our country. Religion creates division; relationship with Christ enables unity.

That is One Spirit;One Church;One Christ:One Lord over all. This is not rocket science theory theology very simple very plainly enumerated in the Word Of God. It is so simple that I believe a child could understand it. So whats the problem?

Christ made it simple:man makes it complicated! Because I live across the street from a IFB pastor,You folks understand that I see things up close and personal for many years. Observation #3; It is interesting to note how IFBers are taught against and to resist any Psychological intervention for balanced living or shall I state balance Christian living. Yet, there are a lot of psychological dynamics being play out in there lives whether they admit to its existence i.e.

Manipulation,intimidation and or abuse or reverse psychology, these are the very items that could be handle by even a well trained non-christian therapist would you folks not agree? In the Old Testament, there was no healing on the Sabbath because work was not allowed on the Sabbath. In the New Testament, Jesus did heal on the Sabbath, not to break the law but because it was a very rigid interpretation of the law and Jesus came to see that people lived and healed. I think human nature looks for the concrete and that includes things that are easy to understand from a human perspective. Also our laws make us feel safe. Competition is not always bad.

Paul talks about competition in sports in Phillippians. It becomes a problem when it is not placed in balance with God’s intentions. I don’t know whether or not this makes sense to you, Don Komos. Don, In heaven we will be perfect. It is the faith in the cross and resurrection that leads to salvation and especially the acknowledgement and confession of sin. Ephesians 2:8-10 Romans 10:8-10, John 3:3-5 In the Old Testament, before our sins were atoned on the cross, there was an emphasis on the exact obedience of the law.

I don’t believe the Christian walk is supposed to be a free-for-all. That’s also a misunderstanding of grace to the other extreme. We’re talking about a balance with both grace and justice.

I think people are competitive by human nature. People try to please and gain approval which is part of our human nature. Sometimes there is a viscous cycle. The focus is supposed to be on God and the Bible and the Holy Spirit.

I think the balance goes off center in either direction and sometimes both at the same time. Think of a tightrope. When one walks a tightrope or even a balance beam, one has to keep one’s eyes focused. This is also true for performing pirhouettes in dance. In sports, we use objects for “spotting”. In our Christian life, we use the Bible, pray to God, and seek the dwelling of the Holy Spirit. Anyone can be deceived.

Do people want to be deceived. Many probably don’t and some may not even realize it’s happening if it’s very subtle. We have to be always on watch too. I was reading the top. I hope in time that you’ll be able to read some of the passages you loved as a child without the pain of abuse although I realize that this can occur over a period of time rather than all at once. When a person feel denied of even a hearing or totally robbed of justice, anger boils inside.

This also happens when people feel that they are being brushed off and that serious concerns are being ignored. I know I used to feel this way, not necessarily due to justice, but because in a graded classroom, I felt performance anxiety and sometimes as I got older, at least into my teens and twenties, stage fright.

Of course, when I combined the link to my faith, rather than becoming a source of consulation, it became one more subject I had to conquer rather than a relationship with God. This was how I felt about reading in general and wasn’t limited to religious materials. Now I can read and really enjoy it. Now, many years later, I can really enjoy the music too. Sometimes people don’t understand why a person looks for good even in a bad situation. Soem feel that finding good even in a bad situation removes the serious concerns.

I don’t think it does though. I think it can help heal. It’s not something we can do on our own strength though. We have to ask God for divine intervention. In some cases, that divine intervention in itself is a miracle.

There are times when I believe we feel justified anger and it doesn’t go away until we respond and recognize whether or not its legitimate and if it is legitimate, it doesn’t go away until we take action. At the same time, while people are alive, they have the chances to change.

I don’t know what will happen in the future. I can’t see that far ahead. I try to take one day at a time. Sometimes when I get discouraged, I just look at the framed copy of “The Serrenity Prayer” and just pray and let God handle the situation from there. Hills from whence I think the responsibility here is shared by the church in the sense that the church is supposed to be the shining light in the community and provide the example that Christ intended; however, we have a responsibility ourselves to go to the Bible, study, and pray. We also have a responsibility in this computer age to do some research on our own, which by the way is much easier than it was in the past.

We have so much more at our access than we did in the past and so quickly with just the touch of our fingertips. God rewarded the Christian who realized one needed help and just asked for wisdom and discernment whether it was the great king like David or Solomon or whether it was just the ordinary common folk just making a living in one’s daily routine. He provides the Bible and the Holy Spirit for our discernment as well as prayer.

I’m not asking you to abandon convictions, just to go back to the Bible. Jesus is our focus. It’s easy to get a bracelet and read that question.

I have a lot of questions about this “bumper sticker” Christianity or commercialism in the Christian walk myself, including the bracelets. It’s not so much that there isn’t a message, but that it’s displayed in a way that I think cheapens the message. “Honk honk for Jesus” also could cause a car accident for those who get distracted by noise.

The h orn in the Bible was used for specific purposes. It was used very by shepherds very carefully too as much as the staff. In Revelations, i think God is not only talking to the seven churches, but individuals as well. And he says repent and return.

He says that in the Old Testament too, just looking toward Christ whereas in much of the New Testament, we are looking back except for the period in which Jesus walked with the apostles. Great leaders like David and King Solomon and Daniel were rewarded for asking God for guidance. The list of leaders that turned to God is long. Proverbs 3:5-6, Matthew 6:6, Matthew 7:7, and Matthew 11:28.

The Psalms are among my favorite though. The third church I mention is not affiliated with the same organizations as the first two. The second was a “sister church” of the first even though it was a very small group.

While a sister church may not necessarily constitute a denomination in respect to size, there isi a connection, and when you add their affiliated organizations, while the structure may be looser, i can’t call them independent. They are affiliated and need to publish their affiliations.I didn’t know that the first church was affiliated until my second year at the college. If I know in advance, it doesn’t bother me as much if they make it well known who the affiliations are, but when they try to act like there are no affiliations, then it does bother me.

One of my concerns has to do with what I believe is a great emphasis on the apocalypse. I have mentioned on other posts that I do believe the Book of Revelation is inspired and should be read. I don’t want anyone to draw the wrong conclusion. I think it’s important that before a person reads the Book or Revelation, they understand other parts of the Old and New Testament first.

I don’t see how very young children can do this. I’m not talking about individual verses that are used for assurance and comfort. I am talking about churches who use the apocalypse to rush their converts into decisions. I am talking about guessing a particular date. I do believe we are supposed to speak when Christians observe Christians engaged in activities that oppose the word.

That is a spirit. What I differ with is when Christians are trying to guess the actual identity of an individual person called “The AntiChrist.” I do not believe this person has been revealed at this time but will be revealed in the future. There is not only in a danger in respect to rushing decisions which should take time, but also in being wrong. I have heard a number of guesses about the identity of the individual called “The AntiChrist” which is different from unbiblical preaching.

If Christians, especially well known leaders guess and try to identify this person in error time after time, it takes away the credibility of their ministry. The secular industry has jumped on the band wagon. I have also said this before.

The secular industry wants money and ratings. That’s their goal.

It’s not necessarily scriptural accuracy. I realize very young people go to secular movies too. I believe that we are supposed to wait and be prepared. We are supposed to study Scripture.

If we belive it is being used in error, we are supposed to speak out. However, we must be very careful in the way we do. We must use caution. People don’t grow at the same physical, mental, or social rate. They are often grouped by age for practical reasons.

Churches like to encourage inviting new people. While it is true that many will have a background where they have learned to discern scriptures, they may also have students who don’t. When a church offers studies in the Book or Revelations, I don’t recommend that they should stop studying the Book or Revelatoins, rather instead, that they include prerequisites and really consider the audience. This might be better in a smaller group or at least a group where the teacher knows the members or others attending a particular class. I can’t count how many predictions about the last days I have heard with specific dates and hours.

That I know is unscriptural. But I have also heard evangelists try to guess the specific identity of the antichrist, the person. When either doesn’t happen, people question it, especially if the person does this time after time. I believe that there are many scriptures that can be used in respect to conversion and assurance and I’m not convinced that we need to base these altar decisions on the rapture and events after the rapture. I have no objection to using Romans or John. I have fellowshipped with other Baptists myself even after leaving the IFB.

I apologize if I ever gave the impression that I oppose Baptists. My posts are not geared to all Baptists in general. I objected to the fact that a particular church felt that it represented the “true Baptist” and that a particular college did too. There were other Baptists in respect to churches as well as colleges and universities. I fellowshipped with people of different denominational backgrounds also. I learned that there are other ways of soulwinning also. At the time I was in this particular group, I was taught that there was one way, the way practiced by the church and that was it.

I believe the Spirit leads. We must wait for the spirit to lead.

We must pray for the guidance. The spirit also leads in individual ways at time.

Sometimes in the desire for enthusiasm and numbers, the Holy Spirit gets pushed to the side. I hope I clarify my position on this. I think a lot of this actually has to do with a desire either to push numbers and or for a minister to try to duplicate the work of another ministry. God may use one person one way and another, a different way. I think sometimes we try to create a mold that may or may not be scriptural. A.- What your saying makes sense and I can see why that would be.

It is so true and it is the same in our romantic relationships with men and women and friendships for that matter. Hence that is why it is so important to take things slowly and really weigh what you are taking in. I have to force myself to do that because I am a very trusting person, I have had to become much more of a critical thinker when it comes to peoples motives and agendas. Emotions definitely can misguide you and I have to be particularly careful in my case. Really it is old fashioned common sense on so many judgement calls even though that sounds almost too simple to say especially when so many come from backgrounds where “normal” was chaos. My brother is a staunch Lutheran pastor with legalistic views[Missouri senate.] His family barely talks to us and especially me because we’re too “worldly” when it comes down to it as to compared to Martin Luther’s law.[yes, they worship Martin Luther plain and simple.] It is SO obvious what MAN has created and what Jesus hasn’t.

Jesus doesn’t split families apart or hurt others in any way it’s that simple. I feel a HUMBLE church that doesn’t have to put on a show or feel they have something to prove[uh oh, that almost describes Jesus] is going to be the most likely church for a healthy fellowship with the Lord while putting HIM first with His word.

What’s going on today with the Joel Olsteens and hundreds of other false prophets is just,in my opinion, pimping out Jesus. Kira, it is so good to hear your thoughts and your ability to discern your situation. People who have become experts on cults and aberrant groups say that when a person leaves one deeply enmeshed type of group, they often are drawn to another with similar dynamics-even if the theology is vastly different. Knowing this, and having left an IFB, I am very much on guard about feelings and emotional pull I may feel when visiting other (in my case) Christian groups.

I want to make sure my attraction is healthy and not simply same dysfunction, different group. Something to think about. For example, strict fundamentalist Muslims, if converted, would have a tendency to feel most at home in a strict fundamentalist ‘Christian’ group rather than in something less strict/fundamentalist. Obviously it wouldn’t always be true, but the conditioning tendency would be there. As humans, our inclination is to be drawn to what is familiar, hence the repeat attraction of victims to abusers, etc. Thankyou SO greatly for this site!

I come from a very diverse Christian family. Mom Catholic, dad non IFB Baptist,brother Missouri senate Lutheran Pastor. I am now going to my dads church which I feel is a HEALTHY mix of TRUTH meeting classic Baptist decree as you’ve mentioned on here. People maintain who they are in Christ without being “browbeaten.” I have to say that I JUST started going to my dads church because prior I had become attracted to our local IFB church first.[attending for about only 3 months.] What lead me there was a IFB website-Jesus-is-saviour.com.

That I had been studying from for 7 mo. You could say I became a bit brainwashed by seeing OVER AND OVER again how EVERY other denomination and bible that was non kjv was evil!! For some reason though I was drawn to this site like a moth to a flame and literally became addicted to it. The guy who is a pastor who presides over it WORSHIPS Jack Hyles which NOW after doing some real research sounds as though he was in love with discipline rather than the Lord. I’ll tell you I feel I was attracted to this “brand” of Baptists because I am a bit of an extremist myself which I realize isn’t always healthy. Meaning that I am the type of person that if I like something I like it 110% or if I DO something I give it 110% so a bit of overachiever tendencies there.

[making me ripe for the picking I’m sure.] When you have that personality type it’s easy to miss the point and find yourself miserable over something you should be ENJOYING!!! What stopped me from going a 110% into the church? When I read in the churches school handbook [I was wanting to send my 7 year old to their private school] about using corporal punishment at THEIR discretion.

I may project extremist tendencies upon myself but thank GOD not my kids!! Anyway to say the least I couldn’t picture Jesus with a varnished paddle awaiting the next child to “loose his walk with the Lord”. My ideals with the churches motives began to crumble and the Holy spirits discernment kicked in. I have a long background in mental health nursing and I know all too well how abuse starts and why EVER entice the possibilities?? While going to the church I did notice how the kids were like little soldiers, while that isn’t a BAD thing given a place and a time with knowing how to be “proper” in public situations I felt there was just something still unnatural with it.

Sothe corporal punishment makes sense because it would be encouraged to do at home as well. To spank or not to spank. This is how I feel about it and I feel Jesus did as well as it better fits HIS nature. Susan Lawrence of Arlington, MA, a homeschooling Lutheran mother, was distressed to see an advertisement for a child discipline tool called “The Rod” in a Christian homeschooling magazine. It is pictured above. Interviewed on Beliefnet, she said: “There are about five verses in Proverbs that do speak of beating your son with a rod, and also in Proverbs they speak of beating fools on the back, and that kind of thing. There’s a lot of punishment in the Old Testament.

If you read the whole thing, there are floggings and stonings and all kinds of harsh punishments.” When asked about Proverbs 23:13’s statement: “if you beat him with a rod he will not die. Beat him with a rod and you will save him from the grave,” Lawrence said: “It’s a lie, because children who are beaten with a rod sometimes do die.

Between one and two thousand children die every year in this country from corporal punishment. One hundred forty-two thousand are seriously injured from corporal punishment every year in America, according to the Dept. Of Health and Human Services and the New England Journal of Medicine. So it can’t be taken literally.” 11 bulletMichael Jost writes that a “shebet” can mean a scepter or a staff as in a shepherd’s staff. It is a sign of authority and a tool to shepherd the sheep.

He writes: “According to Easton’s Bible Dictionary, ‘the scepter originated in the idea that the ruler was a shepherd of his people’.[Like shepherds,] As parents we are to guide our children in the wilderness of the modern world. We need to provide them with a set of values and with ways of approaching life that has integrity and respect for others as a cornerstone. We certainly don’t do that by beating them. A shepherd who beats his/her sheep, will have no flock. The sheep will run from his/her voice and flee from his/her calling.We parents are the shepherds for our children. By applying the rod of protection, guidance, care, and nurturance, we can guide them into adulthood. But if we spare the rod, children are abandoned to their own devices and limited experiences for guidance.

Discipline is about instruction, NOT beatings. ****A child cannot LISTEN to someone he/she is afraid of. *****Lessons cannot be integrated by one who is in shock from having been struck.

What they learn is distrust, fear, and violence.” 12 bulletGrace Chou studied the passages in Proverbs after receiving a suggestion from her mother to stop spanking her son. She writes: “I found the perfect example of grace-filled discipline in Jesus. [Author Rick] Creech notes that, ‘Some of the things of the Old Testament were done away with when the New Testament came into place.

Take the adulterous woman in John 8:3-11 for example. The law of the Old Testament stated very clearly that if anyone committed adultery, they should be put to death. But Jesus did not allow the men to put her to death. Instead Jesus said to the men, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” Jesus did not change the moral principle that was in the law, because he still told the woman, “Go now and leave your life of sin.” But Jesus did change the way that the requirement of the law was enforced. Jesus did away with the harsh physical punishment, but he still upheld the moral standard.’ I knew it was my job as a parent to do the same.” 13,14 Ok. So while my local church MAY be one of the “good” IFB churches according to some peoples standards, I sense,and am now confirmed by your site, that there is a UNHEALTHY balance there of “God loving us” BUT we have to be RIGIDLY obedient in order for Him to do so.

They have the dress codes, KJV only, schools, everything that seems to keep everyone SEGREGATED into their own community.[no computer use,tv,no worldy music according to THEIR definition of worldly.] They are NOT allowed to have interests in dating ESPECIALLY with another kid from a different denomination. All the red flags are there.

We also have a” character training center” of theirs in town which caused a stir because of being unlicensed ect. My town is small so people were calling them a cult ages ago. The church has been here about 17years. Believe me,I realize having the state involved isn’t always a great thing BUT I have seen abuse through my line of work while working in private health care facilities and I’ve seen the state improve things in some needed cases. I decided to explore the center online and our local paper covered the story 2 years ago based on reports of a sex offender teen being placed in their group home. Also paddling reports. The sex offender kid was court ordered to be there and the paddling went unfounded so end of story.

The state is involved there now but on a very superficial basis because they ofcourse are not state funded. The pastor NEVER did comment to the paper about anything. I turned from hot to cold with the thoughts of joining the church needless to say.[ I feel like a sucker for having been so enticed by that website first and foremost.] There are just too many red flags of deceit going on. Especially when the sheriff of our town goes to the church!Since we are a small town rumors are so frequent people just parrot eachother but there is also the advantage to see connections more clearly given it’s a smaller circuit of information to filter through. My final thoughts are what would your advice be in becoming proactive about spiritual abuse awareness for an individual to partake in in their community?

I want to do this for the kids sake first and foremost. We have all the typical cults in our town as well.

AGAIN thanks for the insights I “get it.” Also, another thing that attracted me to the church was the pastors zest for spiritual warfare training which I do highly regard and feel more churches desperately need to preach on. However a little goes a long way and this subject has the potential to cause someone to have a nervous breakdown if also taken to extremes. I have a bad feeling they use this to CONTROL people rather than “empower” them in the name of Christ. I suppose that actually comes through clearly because they are against tv, internet use ect. ALL TOGETHER as these are considered the devils playground. The saddest thing about all of this with ALL extreme Christian movements is that they miss the point entirely and teach children and people to actually NOT trust the Holy spirit to talk with their heart and give them the NATURAL discernment that comes with that communication.

People aren’t able to encompass their NATURAL God given gifts as well and are pressured to pursue others. Thankyou so much for letting me post and I hope I’ve helped contribute to your site by helping someone else:). The college or university becomes a “hub” for all the ministries affiliated with an church, association, or denomination.

This is especially true when the educational facility has a large audience through television evangelism. The college or university provides the education and the recruits for other ministries, for which often the church is a part whether it is independent or affiliated with an association or denomination. It is evident, whether or not I like it, that there are serious problems with the institution I attended.

This nullifes the time, financial investment, and accomplishments of students as well as faculty and administration. Materials from publications are used by supporting churches whether they are independent, affiliated with an association, or part of a large mainline denomination.

In many organizations, the information is accessible and open. More instruction is provided.

Also there are choices. There is respect for iindividuality.

Many pastors recommend their alma maters or the college supported by their denomination, but many do not do this at the exclusion of other schools. Many of the large mainline denominations do have college and university campuses which are regionally accredited and also with programs which are also professionally accredited which is also very important. Many professional affiliations are required.

In many schools, the staff and faculty come from different backgrounds with different alma maters, public, as well as private. They come with a wide variety of experience in their vocations also.

My particular situation was very closed and not regionally accredited. My attendance basically has been nullified and discredited. Many students will not list this particular school on their resumes. In some states, it is against the law to list this school on any resume or even to apply to a government job.

Other states are more supportive. People may have different experiences based on where they live. Once upon a time, people attended college after high school. That has changed. People often have to go back.

The problem is that they can’t pick up. Also what should be an alma matter with a good student spirit has become an alma mater of shame. The leader has made irresponsible comments about the government, also places faculty, administration, alumni, and the current student body in question.

This does not happen at other Christian schools. This is not the norm. If you talk to people at that campus or their satellite church colleges, you will be told something entirely different. The church is in effect, a college satellite just with a different name.

I can’t distinguish the two very easily whereas in other situations, they are separate. The sexual scandals associated with some of these churches and ministries nullify this identification. This destroys the credibility of one’s testimony, forcing one to start over from scratch. That’s the not the purpose of a Christian education. My focus really is more on the college than anything else. Btw, most IFB churches will tell you that Baptists aren’t the only ones going to heaven. Saved people go to heaven.

Most will admit that Baptists aren’t the only “good” christians. Yet this is my experience, having been in IFB churches for my entire 37 years. They won’t say it, but their life declares their belief that they are the only good christians and will have heaven all to themselves. They are “baptist briders.” They deny it, but this is how I see their response: “I am large, gray, have large ears, and a trunk. But I am not an elephant.” What?!

To be honest, IFB churches have not been around since Christ. Churches that have held similar beliefs have existed since the time of Christ, but to tag on IFB to the claim would be erroneous. I don’t believe that many would disagree with the doctrine of your average IFB church. However, it is their approach way of doing things that is headed for a dead end in our society. I have found a wonderful church that believes and teaches baptist doctrine. It isn’t a baptist in name church. IFB churches have become nothing more than sounding brass.

I am at a church that loves. So Sorry you all feel this way! Ran across this web site by accident, and can’t believe what I am reading. I have been a member of IFBC since 1981 and would never go anywhere else. If you would do some investigating on the history of it, you will find that this church has been around since Christ, it never came out of the Cathalic church (protestant) as some will say and like in all churches, people are human and make mistakes and churches are branded for these reasons.

The beliefs I have today are the beliefs I had when I chose to be a part of this church. Jesus Christ is real and coming soon, I want to live for him, win others to him and be a blessing to others until he returns and the church I am in is where he lead me to serve him. When I was in my old IFB Church I wanted to find out more about IFB Churches so I did a google search and typed in “Independent Fundamental Baptist”. This website was one of the first ones to come up on the google search. This website kind of left a bad taste in my mouth with the IFB’s so I had to end up leaving My old IFB Church.

I did another google search today for “Independent Fundamental Baptist” on google and this website was the second one to come up behind the wikipedia thing for IFB. Thought this would be interesting to share. With his stripes we are healed, A brother in Christ. Rich, It is not just the liberal churches that are moving away from the IFB, conservative churches are dropping the Independent Fundamental Baptist label.

The reason is as I understand it is that too many people have been exposed to bad teaching and unbiblical practice in many IFB churches. I know that they are not all like this, but many are. If I were to start a church, I wouldn’t use the IFB name because there are too many bad churches already using it.

I would also say that it is about time that people who are truly concerned about biblical separation, start looking at some of their own associations. Are you separated from Jack Schaap and Hyles-Anderson?

No one would know by the name of your church. I have to say that I believe the Fundamental Baptist movement started well and was sound in its early stages. One of the basic problems that has plagued it ( and many other good churches as well ) is that evil men and imposters have crept in to the leadership. Evil men have taken over a lot of churches and great damage has been done. Men like Jack Hyles were not exposed for their false teaching like they should have been, and now his error is being perpetuated a thousand times over to the detriment of families and people across the country. When I see false teaching like this going on, I have to stand up and say something.

I know that IFB churches do a lot of good, but there are a fair share of bad ones leading people astray. I do not usually reply because normally it starts a huge thread, which is not my goal. However, I feel compelled to comment on “That is why a number of churches have dropped the Fundamental and Baptist label.” The reasons are numerous and may include your reasoning, but many are compromising and capitulating hoping to draw a crowd. Many (not all) of these “Come-As-You Are, Leave-As-You-Came and You’ll-Keep-Coming-Back-Just-The-Same “churches greatly water down the Gospel and particularly the doctrine of ecclesiastical and personal separation. Many times they “drop the name” because they are no longer either fundamental in doctrine, nor Baptist (historically) if belief in practice. Hope this does come off as holier-than-thou or know-it-all. I am the Pastor of an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church.

It is our conviction to be such based on God’s Word. We are not mad at everybody else, nor do we believe that one has to be a Baptist to go to Heaven. When we disagree with another Church or group of churches on non-essentials, my response is always the same, “Our sign says Independent (Autonomous, Self-Governing according to the Word of God).”. Hi Pastor Rich, Thanks for writing.

I don’t usually comment on posts from IFBers for the same reasons, unless I’m asked for a debate of course. I can see you cringing as you type wondering what kind of backlash you will receive. I wish more IFB Pastors would come here willing to have an open discussion, but as you probably noticed it doesn’t usually work out that way.

We aren’t bad people Pastor Rich. We simply see what’s wrong with the IFB and want to be a voice of change.

I have just one question for you right now. Can you please back up those beliefs with scripture for me? I’m curious to know, in particular, how you came to the conclusion that “ecclesiastical and personal separation” are part of the gospel message? Greg, I agree with you per your caution about things with men’s names attached. I simply don’t go to any church for the time being but I have noticed that churches I have visited are far more likely to be following some man (Calvin or some popular author such as Piper, Driscoll, Grudem, etc.) that I ever remember being the case in years past.

What you have added regarding Lipton’s comments about Jesus not being preached very much in IFB churches is fascinating. I think your reasons are right-looking at Jesus can be very uncomfortable.

I think I will have to check the sermons from his church since they are online and see what I can learn about this. Lipton, I feel for you in this, for sure. The only advantage you have as far as I can tell-maybe two-is that you are the man, so they probably don’t accuse you of not submitting to your spouse, and you are able to stomach going to her church. I am no longer able to go to his. I met with him and his pastor once, and I met with the pastor another time much more recently and both conversations were so dismal I have decided to brush the dust off the feet.

I wish I could stomach it-in a way-because we are pretty much like two ships passing in the night with the amount of involvement he has at his church. I am a church widow, as the description goes. I am intrigued by the idea of talking to him about Jesus more, though, especially since their relationship seems to focus more on the bible and rules than it does on Jesus though they preach about that on rare occasion as it relates to sinning and getting right with God and then serving Him. Thank you for this suggestion! “Try to talk to your husband about Jesus.

He probably doesn’t hear enough about Him at the IFB.” True words, isn’t it odd? IFB’s will preach sermon after sermon and then tag it with an appeal to come to Jesus at the end of the message, an unsaved person must be thinking, who’s this Jesus, this is the first I’ve heard about Him today! I left the hardcore IFB about 3 years ago, but its only been about the last year that I have noticed that this “religion” that I was apart of my entire life, that was supposed to be about Jesus, doesn’t talk about or “preach” much about Jesus.

I have a feeling the reason is, if you start looking at Jesus and the things he taught, he starts stepping on toes real hard as it relates to legalism, and where would most of these IFB’s be w/out their their favorite past time, pointing out the faults of others! I comment over at SFL (stuff fundies like) regularly, however I hesitate to reccomend it to alot of people because most anything goes over there, simple faith is often marginalized, it also seems that Calvinism is the most “accepted” form of faith, which I find odd, why would one leave a man-dominated faith (IFB) and go right back into another man-dominated faith (Calvinism) To anyone reading this, anytime a man’s name (John Calvin) is attached to a belief system, enter cautiously, in fact I personally would say avoid it. Prayers for you and your family, it is very difficult navigating the land mine field that you presently find yourself in. Unlike what SFL says though, there are good people and there is faith in some of the IFB’s, unfortunately it is so littered with legalism its hard spot at times.

Anonymous, your story is similiar to mine. My wife is IFB. She was “backslidden” when we met and then married. Then she started going back to church. I tagged along and got saved! But the more I heard from the IFB, the more questions I had. The more questions I had, the more I realized the answers were not adding up.

Fast forward a couple of years now and I am trying to get her to see the error in the IFB teachings on some things. I have to be patient as to not do or say anything to jeopardize our marriage. Our marriage is more important than the IFB. So much so that I still attend the IFB. I have come to the realization that we can believe different things but it doesn’t matter as long as we both believe in salvation in Jesus Christ by grace through faith. Anyway, I pray for your situation. Try to talk to your husband about Jesus.

He probably doesn’t hear enough about Him at the IFB. And one more thing that may help you in your journey, a website that I find therapeutic.stufffundieslike.com. You’ll laugh, you might cry, you might do both at the same time.

It is a lighter look at the IFB. John, thank you for what you shared. I am going to copy those verses. I hadn’t put them all together quite like that but you are absolutely right.

When I was single, the verse that spoke of God being the husband to the husbandless and the father to the fatherless was my comfort. I am finding I need it again in a certain way; it came to my mind in fact two days ago so your own comments here are surprisingly timely. My husband does have a number of very good qualities. He also happens to be a stuanch Bob Jones U. Type of Fundamentalist.

Having discovered this has really added to the pitch of my learning curve-no doubt his as well though we tend to end up with different answers to the challenges. As I have read through the comments in this blog site, I can hear so many commonly held statements, and they are so nearly indentical in how they are stated per each theme or topic that it is almost as if they have all been memorized rather than truly thought out.

That is the impression i get, anyway. When I began thinking about what my husband’s church was teaching-on more areas than just the restrictions for women (their view of separation, music, ‘biblical authority’, the bible as the final authority rather than the Holy Spirit, dispensationalism and how that played out for them, etc., etc.) I had to begin really thinking for myself and answering the red flags in my gut so to speak. I was told I was being unbiblical, unsubmissive (both to my husband and to the church authorities) and I felt as though I were speaking to people whose understanding was darkened. That is not just because they didn’t think as I did because I know people who don’t line up with me on every issue yet I can tell they are somehow truly thinking and examining things without blindly following the party line so to speak. There is a light on in their mind. This has all resulted in my husband and I not even being able to talk about God or the Holy Spirit or the bible or anything related to it, because he cannot really come out of the mindset to truly discuss things. It is, sadly, like being married to an unbeliever in that sense.

It is not what I had hoped for, but it definitely has sharpened my own thinking, caused me to know more clearly what I believe and why. This is a good benefit. It has driven me closer to Jesus.

It is nice to know there are still men as well as women out there who understand these things in this light. I hope and pray that you will find a blessing of a wife! Anonymous, Good post. At the beginning of your post you said “I am married to an IFB”. Not only that your married to Jesus Christ himself.

You have another husband. No only you but also me and ever Christian there is. Jesus Christ is the best Husband there is. I’m not gay or homosexual but Jesus Christ is a good husband to have.

I’m also maybe hoping for a godly wife someday, Lord willing. “I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.” (2 Corinthians 11:2). That’s from the NIV “For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:2). That’s from the ESV “Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4). That’s from the KJV “Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.” (Romans 7:4).

That’s from the NKJV. By the way I’m not saying your husband is a bad husband. I’m sure he’s a great husband. I’m just Saying Jesus Christ is a better husband. The Lord loves us all, A brother in Christ. Joe, you make good points. I am married to an IFB and no longer go to his church and have a deep distaste for IFBism despite knowing some good people within those churches.

When I first realized what IFBism was all about-after having married into it without much awareness (all the website information for this particular church is vague and only an insider or someone who knows would know what to look for in the veiled wording of things) I felt a growing horror at what I had gotten myself into, since my spouse was and is deeply involved in and staunchly believes in his church. I am an IFB widow-very possibly for life. When I began asking questions about the church’s beliefs, the responses I got were so arrogant and unloving I was astonished. Then, when I had disagreements with my spouse, I was told our ‘marriage problems’ were because I wouldn’t submit to him.

On and on it went. This is a very conservative IFB though without a lone eagle at the helm-there is a main pastor, an associate, a youth pastor and a music leader as well as someone who runs the school. There is also an elder board. The governance is rather consistent with the ‘best IFB practices’ though I disagree with it in principle.

All this to say that when I finally quit going, I was deeply angry, stunned, horrified at my situation, and so on. I was so angry that this website seemed tactful to me. I was angry that so many out there in IFB land were being deceived and taught things I thought seemed blatantly contrary to Jesus’ teachings at a minimummuch less the rest of the biblical account of things, as well as contrary to what I sensed the Holy Spirit was sayiing to me. I agree that some may be put off by tones that go beyond a certain limit. For others, it will be a very welcome balm.

I don’t know if it is possible for a web or blogsite to have a broad spectrum approach. It may be, but it would likely leave the folk on either edge out a bit. Anyway, We also know that Jesus appeared to use what would seem to us to be some pretty strong language to the Pharisees a few times, so He had some scorchers, too. It may be something you or someone could dohave a blog that is a bit tamer for those who need that.

I have not been offended by this site, but sensibilities do vary so I can understand what you are saying, I think. Steve, I’ll be honest with you. I am 37 years old, have spent nearly my entire life in IFB churches, and have been an ordained youth pastor in an IFB church for the past 4 years. I am leaving my position, with the Lord’s leading, to begin a home for troubled teenagers.

This home is affiliated with a nondenominational organization. I realize that I will not be supported by most pastors of IFB churches. I am willing and ready to leave “the IFB” to follow God’s will. I agree with much of what you have to say.

My pastor friends (we are all around the same age) agree with me. There is not much of a future for IFB churches. That way of thinking is of a dying breed. They have painted themselves into a cornerand most will not humble themselves and admit their way out. There is a generation of young preachers frustrated with the direction of the average IFB church. Most IFB churches will never admit to being “Baptist-Briders.” Yet, they describe themselves as such.

“I am large and gray, with big ears, and a trunk, but I am not an elephant.” Do what? Your average IFB pastor. “Baptists don’t go to heaven. Saved people go to heaven.” Sounds great. Just don’t fellowship with any of them. They may be Christians and going to heaven, but they aren’t good Christians.

I see and agree with much of what you have posted on your site. I have broadened my own horizons and have become more concerned with following God’s will for my life and not just what an IFB preacher would do. However, your site is rather provocative. In a sense that instead of leading the (IFB) reader to your conclusion, you start out in opposition.

Readers automatically become defensive. The truth must be sharedwith love. Package the truth in such a way that is easier to accept. Otherwise, instead of being a watchman who is warning others of going astray, it may come across as a brother sowing discord.

The name of the website does not help. I want to warn those in IFB churches of the wrong direction I believe most are headed. I do not want to be sowing discord.

Neen, I was in A IBF church for years then recently about two yrs ago left. I now attend a forsquare church and feel so close to God! I would like to inform you that that IBF churches differ. Some are more radical then others and some are not radical very much. The one you spoke about seems to be a very starange one. My parents IBF church isn’t like that.

Not saying I agrre with it but their church isn’t near as bad as the one you mentioned. As far as the kjv stance and no pants or makeup or whatever, that is all man made self opinions. That is shoved down peoples throats. Its just dictatorship is all it is. I pray churches like that go away. Its funny that a lot of the radical crazy and somewhat eveil churches like westburro baptist and the baptist church in arizona with that crazy steve anderson guy, there both Independent baptist.

Idk me personallyIm just thankful I left the IBF church, but ther are some fine ones out there I’m sure. I’m praying for you and my Christ Bless you. I am writing from a very different veiwpoint as I have never been a member of an IFB church. I have only experienced them through others that I know who are members. I saw 20/20 last night and it got me EVEN more worried and sad for my sister and her kids and wanted to get information and support from others that know more about them.

I grew up in Pennsylanvia, in a loving, Catholic family with 4 siblings. My parents guided and encouraged us to acheive our goals and dreams, and cheered us on along the way. They certainly were not perfect parents but they tried to bring us up as honest, empathic, educated and generally good people with happy, fulfilling lives.

I am so grateful for them! My sister met a “born again” friend in college and since then began her drastic personal transformation from the fun-loving, athletic, sweet sister, to an all-encompassing Jesus-endoctrinated servant to her husband. I feel like I lost my sister that I knew and loved. She moved to Alaska with her “in hopes to become a pastor” husband 20 years ago and had several children. When I first met her husband, I remember not feeling that he was truly genuine and never trusted him.

He was very extreme with his beliefs about the world, the limiting roles of men and women, and always had a “Jesus” reply to ANYTHING you may have said.I always felt (and still do)judged by him. But because he tried to be so sweet and charming to people, my parents and others thought he was just such a great guya great christian guy for their daughter. WELL!as the years went by, my parents (and the rest of us) increasingly learned how extremely conservative and distant they had become as they segregated from the family and anyone who wasn’t fundamentally christian, like them. He is very controlling, authoritarian and according to family members who have seen him preach, uses a strict KJV yelling style that is rightous and unyeilding! My sister and her daughters ONLY wear long conservative dresses and headpeices. The girls are not allowed to attend college and because they won’t get SS#’s for the kids, my dad’s hope to set up college funds for all of them was fruitless.

They beleive the husband makes the final decisions and my sister doesn’t challenge him. They forbid dancing, any modern or rock music, alcohol use and don’t have a tv or radio. They shelter their kids from the REAL world and their extended family. I havent seen them in 5 years and before then it was 5 years. I don’t even know my neices and nephews and this point as my attempts to email my older nephew (to keep a connection) were suddenly stopped. Her husband twice reemed me out via email because I forwarded a link (to my sister)on gay marriage and another about the importance of “Acceptance” of diversity in order to create a healthier world. His responses were soooo harsh, judgemental and self-rightous that any christian message he was “trying” to send me was lost.

Also, they never even acknowledged my wedding a few years ago except for telling me that I should not marry my husband because he was divorced. I felt so hurt. My parents often gave them money (to help them out with raising a family) but looking back on it, they never used that money to come visit them for years and my parents sadly hardly know those grandchildrenand my parents have only been kind and generous to them (But Catholic). Sadly, my dad suddenly passed away right after a family reunion that my sister in Alaska didn’t attend (despite not seeing my parents in 5 years! Yet they never complained about all the money they would accept from them! I could go on with tons more concerns but I think you’ve got the picture.

To me, this type of extreme “christian” thinking is full of HATRED, INTOLERANCE, IGNORANCE and OPPRESSION which fuels the opposite of what Jesus was all about, in my opinion. I worry for my sister. This is an mentally abusive situation, at the very least.in other words, CULTLIKE! Thanks for reading this really long comment and I’d appreciate any feedback or advice. Check out Pensacola Christian College. I believe it is IFB. The people who are running it seem to be the most unchristian people.

They intimidate their employees. They out and out lie to get what they want. They used straw buyers posing as young poor couples to rip off people to get their houses. They want to create a closed off compound. Men and women have to use different doors to enter buildings. Men had to go through spot checks to insure their hair is not too long and they have appropriate dress. They basically drag everyone into hall and run measurements.

They supposedly have laxed some rules probably because their enrolment is down. They once made all of their students vote in Florida. No one could use the absentee ballots that many had already. They had to vote with the choices picked by school. Precinct normally had no more than a 100. PCC ran all 4000+ through the precinct. I was in line for 7 hours listening to them.

For being in college they pretty much new nothing about real life. They got away with it with no punishment. Can’t sleep after seeing the 20/20 piece tonight. It was very upsetting & yet I’m glad to see it come to light. My Grandfather was an IFB pastor. He & my Grandmother are both dead now but all of the 7 kids (my Dad included) were raised in the church. My Dad was the only one who didn’t become a pastor (or marry one).

I remember my Dad & Mom telling us kids a story about how they spanked one of us when we were just a few months old over & over until we finally fell asleep (probably passed out). My Dad said it was because they could tell it was an “angry cry” & that they had to spank that “strong will- full disobedience” out of us.

I’d never heard anyone else ever say anything like that until tonight. My sister & I were sexually abused by my Dad from about age 8 until high school. I really relate to what Steve says. I am absolutely a believer in Christ. I consider myself a Christian & can’t imagine how I would have survived without my Faith. And yet it makes me absolutely sick that my Dad used his position as a Deacon to manipulate. I believed what he was doing was my fault because he talked so much about God & could quote scripture.

He was involved in the church. I felt it must be me. I got counseling as an adult & got help. Unfortunately my sister didn’t find peace anywhere & committed suicide 4 years ago. I feel that not only my Dad but a lot of people at IFB at to blame.

Hi Kay – I’m a regular contributor here and just want to thank you personally for stopping by and sharing your story. It’s not just healing for you, but others that hear your story may find the courage to stand up be heard, I know it must be so difficult. It’s hard for me to imagine hearing all of that holier-than-thou preaching at church and then having family member(s) who espouse those same beliefs molest you. I am delighted that you maintained your faith, yes God is faithful, and please accept my condolences on the death of your dear sister. All-Sorry about the reply being to Chi, when it actually isn’t. It was just the closest reply button!

Just heard of IFB on the 20/20 show tonite, and was really shocked. Unfortunately, I don’t have time, given the late hour, to reply to much or carry on a spirited conversation. I’m just learning more about this group.

I must admit I’m not christian, jew or any other major anything to do with a mono-deity theology. I am an ordained minister and high-priest, though. A comment as I leave, though. All this talk by IFB and others about the KJ version of the bible being the only true bible and their stance against gays as being sinners or worse. How do you accept King James I as the true translator of the the bible and the fact he was gay, and probably a pedophile. And then there are the IFB churchesjust when you think you’ve heard and seen it all regarding christians out of control, running amok in the name of the Christ, you find out about the unbelievable behavior of some of these IFB church members and particularly their pastors and male members. What a travesty!

What a depraved lot of sinners! The simple fact that such wolves in sheep’s clothing execute such nefarious deeds confirms not just the presence of evil in this world but that Satan is alive and well. Blot them out, this stain on mankind. They want OT judgement/justice?

I say give it to these pastors and their henchman congregants. And the wives and mothers that condone such idiocy. Don’t look to man for the solution; look to the purity of Jesus, the Son of God.

Great site, let me point out where the problem stems from for the baptist, They commit idolatry by worshiping Yeshua (AKA Jesus Christ) as if he were God, I believe he is the son of God or the messenger of God. Yeshua never was and never will be God, himself. Those who worship Yeshua as God, indirectly worship the devil, and cannot be “Born Again” as they do not believe that God raised Yeshua from the dead, they imagine that God raised himself from the dead. This is a _HUGE_ spiritual problem that shall result in their likely damnation and judgemnet against them for believeing the biggest lie in the world today. Even the Muslims know that those who worship Mohammad as God worship the devil and not the one true God. “The father and I are one” is so overused and incorrectly distorted.

This simply means in essence that they stand for the same Kingdom. Over and over I hear this one scriptural verse used to back up the trinity idea when the trinity isn’t addressed in the Bible rather created by the Roman Catholic church.

However, many, many places it is mentioned of how Jesus the son is praying to and speaking to his Father in Heaven. Don’t quite see how or why he’d be praying to himself and asking himself why he has forsaken himself. I know how fierce most Christians are on this subject and have left it an area to agree to disagree in my own life. But what I find amazing is the lack of scripture to back up the trinity whilst the communication directed at his FATHER was seen again and again. I completely agree with the teachings of IFB churches about the KJV and NO drinking of alcohol, and no need to form associations or conventions since it’s not in the Bible.

Not many Baptists will speak up about much of anything,especially about the evil of drink and that is one fantastic thing about IFB IMO. However, IFB that I was around went a little too far with some things, such as women wearing pants and regular church attendance even for the disabled or ill. If they had more members it would probably ease up some, but most don’t want to join a conservative hell fire preaching church nowadays, unfortunately. Anything is better than being around so called Christians and preachers that don’t even believe the Bible though. Hi Steve – Just a couple of housekeeping things. It seems that I am able to post my stuff easier, haven’t lost any for awhile, for someone that doesn’t know how to cut and paste and all that other stuff you recommend, this is mighty good news.

Sometimes if I take awhile to post and then hit submit, it will tell me it didn’t get the “captcha” code, then I put it in again,and it has taken it, where in the old days it didn’t. I don’t see in the links the “Kenneth” link, did you decide to take it off? Kenneth still emails periodically and referred to something he said, and I went back the other day to verify and couldn’t find the link, I’m not suggesting that you put it back, just wondering where it went.

I enjoy this site very much, its funny how at times there will be several conversations going at once and then it all dries up for a few days. I feel that this site and a few others are really at the forefront of the battle over fundyism, and just a wonderful place for hurting folks to share and be comforted as I feel Jesus would have wanted, instead of the pounding they get from the fundies – you’re not good enough, you don’t pray enough, you don’t give enough, you don’t read your bible enough, How in the world can fundies twist a gospel that is supposed to set us free and turn it into a religion in which everything is your fault? Hi Greg, Patricia, our webmaster, has made some improvements to the site so I’m glad to hear it’s working better. Here’s a tip. After you write a comment but before you submit it, use your mouse and “right click” (use the right mouse button), select the “select all” option and then right click again and select the “copy” option.

This stores what you just wrote in your computer’s memory and if something happens to the post, simply use the right mouse key again and select the “paste” option. This will copy what you have saved back into the comment’s field.

That’s how you “copy and paste”. If this is confusing then do a search for “copy and paste” to learn how or take some time to practice. It will dramatically decrease the amount of “lost” comments you seem to have. Feel free to use this site to practice.

I can delete any extraneous material. The discussion with Kenneth has been moved to the “Discussions” page. Here’s the link: Kenneth has continued to verbally assault me so he has been permanently banned not only from posting comments, but also from even accessing the site.

I hope that doesn’t hamper your discussions with him. I’m glad to have you here, Greg.

You have such well thought out replies. Twisting the gospel is a generational error. People are taught a certain way of thinking then they go on to teach others. If you tell a lie often enough, loud enough and for long enough, people begin to consider it truth. I believe that’s what’s happening in today’s churches, especially the IFB. Steve and the regulars – Just finished reading, wow, talk about rich! You should not drink coffee and read Kenneth’s posts, fair warning!

That first post was really something. Essentially it says “I Kenneth, God’s personal assistant, have arrived, put down your bibles, what do you need them for when you have me. All of you, especially Steve, are in error, now please shut down this site and all will be forgiven, rewards have been lost, but you will be saved, as if by fire.” Would any of you like to send your kids to Kenneth’s SS class? Kenneth no one treated you badly here, in fact you were treated with dignity and respect. You received far better treatment than we received from you. I like many others have been freed of the IFB church.

First off I will say there are some IFB churches who are not as strange and harmful as others,but for the majority they are just cultish,dogmatic,legalistic,radical, man made opinion churches who ruin the name of Christ and Christianity as a whole. I have been to at least 35 of these churches throughout the northwest. Now that number may not seem so large but there are many more that I know of and even more that others I know have been to.

There are many examples of wrong that I could share but to keeep this comment not so long I will only share a couple. My first example of pure wrong that the IFB church did was tell me that music with drums and gutair and what not is wrong and sinful and of the devil. I wanted to join the choir ot singing group but was not allowed do to my belief in spiritual gifts and the fact that I do not posses ties and suits nor wish to wear them. That is absolute filthy for them to do so. I can laugh about it now but then I was deeply hurt and offended.

My second second example is this. I wanted to help be a teacher for kids in church but was denied because I use a “fake Bible” I use the NASV and NLT but they say only the kJV is Gods true word. I asked them which KJV considering there are multiple KJV versions. Anyways needless to say that was the last straw with them and I left! I have never felt so closer to Christ in my life and I zam so thankful HE helped me escape the evil cultish church. Yes some goos can occcur in the IBF church and they do bring people to Christ but be careful for they are most undoubtedley distgusting in what they teach.

Tim, Your experience with the IFB is not much different than mine. Thankfully, I had been taught good doctrine before I attended an IFB church. I think the IFB system is very insidious because they actually believe correctly on most Bible doctrines.

Satan doesn’t create his own system of religion, he always twists the true system. I think the reason why the IFB is so dangerous, is because you have a false system of religion functioning like the true one. I mean, from a distance, it is difficult to see the difference between the genuine and the fake. It is not until you get close up that the differences become apparent. Often times, I think that Legalism is simply trying to live the Christian life in the power of the flesh. An unsaved person can try to live the Christian life in an outward sort of way and look pretty good doing it. The legalist, however, will always be exposed at some critical point when true spiritual energy is demanded.

I am still amazed, and even confounded to this day that the kind of churches mentioned here continue to function as though God were smiling on them. One Scripture that comes to mind is ” if the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness”. I can hardly think of a worse place to be in than thinking I am pleasing God and about His business, but never really knowing Him at all.

May we truly know Him. Your comments reasonably lead to certain assumptions which require questions in order to clarify whether or not the assumption is true. That’s why I asked a question, rather than stated a matter of fact. I’m afraid I am not familiar with any David Benedict other than the one who is a self described baptist historian.

I do not believe he is a credible source. Anyone that knows the result of their investigation before conducting the investigation, is not objective and therefore not trustworthy. He set out to create history, not account for it, and I don’t know of any objective historians that agree with his findings. They are unabashedly self serving and, frankly, very elementary. Do you not ever wonder why there hasn’t been any “works” on “baptist history” written in the last century that don’t merely regurgitate the same material that has already been conclusively established as false? Why hasn’t a single religious historian, other than those who readily affiliate themselves with the baptist, ever came to the conclusion that baptist can be traced back to the 1st century? If you are not suggesting there is a conspiracy, maybe you could list these persons who have set out to taint the baptist denomination by creating fantastical histories.

Because it sure sounds like a conspiracy. Surly you can see that things are not adding up here. It’s time for a little intellectual honesty that might require you do the unthinkable and look at what you have been taught from an objective point of view. Do you really believe these things, or do you just want them to be true because of certain predispositions? I am not aware of the position that a non-gnostic sect of paulicians existed prior to the 7th century. Maybe you could give a objective source for your info and I would be happy to look at it. Your paragraph that beings “Baptist are not protestants” sounds shockingly familiar to what I’ve been told by certain IFBs.

Are you required to memorize this statement as an article of faith? I have never seen any objective evidence that supports this position. In fact, the only source for such that I have ever encountered has come directly from IFBs. It’s akin to a person listing themselves as a reference on their own resume. I don’t doubt that there was Christianity in England shortly after Christ’s death.

However, I have no reason to believe that it resembled the beliefs of modern day baptist (not just IFBs). Are you suggesting that the baptist religion was started in England rather than in and around 1st century Palestine? I’d be happy to look at some of your objective sources. Also, why would any baptist want to associate themselves with the Lollards? They believed in infant baptism, consubstantiation, the invisible church and rejected the trinity. I agree with your paragraph that beings “The line of English churches.” There is a plethora of evidence to the effect that John Smyth, an Anglican priest, started a new sect that we know today as baptist (he and his followers were also the predecessors of Anabaptist, i.e., what we call Mennonites today).

He did not join a faith/movement already in existence that could trace it’s roots back to the 1st century. He started something new. It is impossible to trace churches that hold to “baptist principles” past the early 17th century because they simply did not exists.

And I adamently disagree with your suggestion that there is some conspiracy by which persons posing as IFBs create ridiculous histories (e.g. “The Trail of Blood”) in order to “taint Baptist history.” Since the late 19th century, ardent and sincere baptists have been trying in vain to link themselves to 1st century Christianity. When faced with unfavorable facts, they have created their own and thus perpetuated an untruth — a lie. Pastor Lynn: In an earlier post, you mention something to the affect that IFBs are the heirs of the Paulicians and that IFBs never “split” from the Roman Catholic Church. How on earth you (or other IFBs — I know it is a prevelant opinion) came to this conclusion is beyond me.

Even more so, why would you want to assoicate with the Paulicians? They rejected a good portion of the NT, added a few books to it, and rejected both baptism and the lords supper. In fact, the only thing that they and the IFBs have in common is the rejection of the veneration of Mary, which I feel is the only reason IFBs thought it proper to attempt forming a link to them in the first place. Throw in the fact that the Paulician movement didn’t come about until the 7th century (way after the formation of the RCC), and it is obvious that the IFB has simply just created this supposed connection in an attempt to further distance itself from Rome. It’s a lie and one of the main reason I can’t alighn myself with IFB beliefs.

JohnS: What you were referring to was paulicianism movement, which was started by Constantine in the 7th century AD. They called themselves paulicians after the first paulicians who can be traced back to the 3rd century AD. Not the same thing. Baptists are not Protestants. The name Protestant was given to those churches which came out of Roman Catholicism during the Reformation which began in the 1500s.

It originally applied in the 1700s to Lutherans in Germany, the Presbyterians in Switzerland, and Anglicans or Church of England. Later such as Congregationalists, Episcopalians and Methodists were added to the lists of Protestants denominations. Though many people including Webster’s Dictionary refer to Baptists as being Protestants, it is not historically correct to refer to them as such or to lump all non-catholic denominations in one group and label them Protestant. Historically, Baptists were never a part of the Roman Catholic Church or the Protestant Reformation.

They cannot be correctly called “protesters” or Protestants who left the Roman Church. In recorded church history there is not one recorded incident of a Baptist church being founded out of Roman Catholicism. Protestants for centuries, saw the Baptists as their “enemies” and murdered them by the thousands in the name of Protestantism. The historian David Benedict states the Gospel was preached in Britain within sixty years of the Lord’s return to heaven.

These churches appear to have been baptistic and remained sound until Austin, the Catholic monk brought Catholicism to the Isles in 597 A.D. He states there were Baptists in England 1400 A.D., and mentions William Sawtre, who was identified as a Lollard and Baptist. He was the first person burned at the stake after Henry IV’s 1400 A.D. Decree to burn heretics.

His “crime” was he refused infant baptism and rejected the Anglican church as being biblical. Benedict states that the English Roman Catholics in 1535 put to death twenty two Baptists for heresies.

In 1539 thirty one more that had fled to Holland were apprehended and martyred there. He records that five hundred others who were identified as Anabaptists were also killed in England during this period. After Henry VII separated England from the Roman Catholic Church the Baptist fared no better. Many Baptists were executed by the newly formed Church of England during what is called the “Protestant inquisition.” The line of English churches that can be traced, who called themselves Baptists, began in 1610 in Holland. This is not to say there were no Baptists in Britain earlier, but that this began a line of churches whose history can be traced. It began with a man named John Smyth who was an ordained bishop in the Church of England. In 1606, after nine months of soul-searching and study of the New Testament he was convinced the doctrines and practices of the Church of England were not biblical, and thus he resigned as priest and left the church.

Because of prosecution by the Anglican Church of all who disagreed with it and who refused to agree to its authority, John Smyth had to flee England. In Amsterdam, he with Thomas Helwys and thirty six others formed the first Baptist church of English people known to have stood for baptism of believers only. It is difficult to trace churches that held to Baptist principles down through history.

Some Baptist historians have made attempts at doing this, but in many cases refer to groups as early Baptists, who did not hold to pure New Testament beliefs. Some have tried to establish that “according to history, Baptists have an unbroken line of churches since Christ.” These historians, in a try to show an unbroken line of Baptists in history, have embraced groups which were clearly not doctrinally sound. But most of these historians either have a motive to taint Baptist history or have left baptist churches altogether. So there is no lie on my part, please do not assume so. I apologize if my pointing out of other churches hurting people seemed like an excuse for what some IFB churches have done, that was not my intent.

I don’t excuse any church, including IFB ones that hurt people, there is never a good excuse for that. I knew eventually the how legalistic are you question would come out, so before I answer the set of questions, I feel it is important to define legalism: 1. A strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, especially to the letter rather than the spirit. The doctrine that salvation is gained through good works. The judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws. In Chinese philosophy, the principles and practices of a school of political theorists advocating strict legal control over all activities, a system of rewards and punishments uniform for all classes, and an absolute monarchy.

I don’t believe our church matches any of those descriptions, or my personal beliefs. Do you teach OT mandatory tithing? Or NT graceful giving as each man purposeth in his heart, so let him give? A) Neither really.

We teach you don’t have to give any money to the church period if you don’t want to. We aren’t going to force you to, nor condemn you if you don’t. But we do believe God blesses giving, so we teach to give not for the churches sake or some law, we teach they should for their benefit of God’s blessing in their lives, because God can far out give anything we do, but it is till entirely up to them. (plus the pastor doesn’t know who gives what or if they give at all, he doesn’t want to know, it’s none of his business, it’s between them and God whether or not they give) 2.Are women welcomed wearing slacks in our services? A)If you were to look from the platform, I’d say 80% of the women in our church are wearing pants, and it doesn’t make us treat them any different. So I’d say they are welcome. 3.Are the preacher’s personal convictions taught as standards to be followed in church?

He will sometimes say from the pulpit while he is preaching what he personally believes about things that aren’t clear cut in the Bible, but says it is up to each individual to study it out and develop their own personal belief/conviction about it. 4.Are all types of Christian music allowed and promoted the church services. A) We typically use much more traditional music like hymns when it comes to our church services, but we have had blue-grass gospel bands play too, so we aren’t too strict. We don’t want the music to be the focus of the service, we want the preaching to be, so we try to keep things simple.

We don’t promote any kind of music period, because we don’t think what we sing/play in church is all a person is allowed to listen to/sing in their own lives at home or where-ever. Music is a personal conviction to each person, so you can listen to whatever you want at home, we don’t care, but the church sets what kind of music gets played during services. 5.Are deacons and ushers required to wear ties A)I will broaden this question to people who work in church in general and dress outside of church. During services if a deacon or usher is performing a church duty that day, then yes, we require them to wear a suit and tie. But they don’t have to be deacons or ushers; it was their choice to fulfill those roles. And were told ahead of time, if they wanted to perform the role, they were required to dress up nicely for services the were performing duties.

They didn’t have to take the role, we didn’t even ask, they volunteered, so they agreed to dress up. If they are not performing a duty that day, they can wear whatever. Same for Sunday School teachers. If people want to volunteer to teach they have to abide by a dress code, they don’t have to teach if they don’t want to, it’s their choice. And I know some people say that’s limiting people’s ability to serve. But really, if a tie or skirt is really going to keep someone from serving, because they were asked to wear one if they want to teach, then they have another problem, because they are letting a piece of clothing come between serving or not, is it really that important? Outside of church, teachers or deacons or any other position can wear what they want outside of church, it’s up to them.

Are people of color welcomed? A) People of any color are welcomed in our church, after all, white is a color 😀 We have evangelists and missionaries who are Asian, black, Hispanic, Indian, you name it, we probably got them all. All are God’s children, so we welcome everyone. 7.Are folks of mixed marriages welcome? The Bible isn’t against it, so neither are we.

A)I use the KJV, our pastor preaches out of the KJV, our teachers teach out of the KJV, but we don’t jam it down people’s throats. I use the KJV because I believe it is the best version of the Bible we have available. Same for our Pastor.

Now, like I said, that is what we believe, we don’t tell people it is the only true Word of God, we have no way of knowing that. But by studying its history we think it’s the best. People are free to use other versions if they want. We don’t preach KJV only, but we do share that we think it is the best, but it is up for them to decide. We believe people can be saved by reading the NIV or any other kind of Bible.

The KJV does not have a monopoly on God, I personally know people who were saved using other versions. So like I said, it is what we use, but we don’t preach on it. And you mentioned in your own life the divorce thing. To let you know about our church, we have 2 ushers, a trustee, and 2 Sunday school teacher’s who are all divorced, so obviously it’s not unpardonable to us. Hope that helps answer some things.

On another note Greg. I just thought of this. You mentioned how you were never ALLOWED, I was wondering exactly what you meant by ALLOWED, and did you ever VOLUNTEER? I am asking because I know in our church, our pastor very rarely goes out and asks people to do things, most of the time people come up to him and volunteer, once in a while he will say there is a need in the church and asks if there is anyone willing to help out, but that is about it. So did you ever volunteer to usher or anything? PastorLynn – Again a very graceful response, very rare among IFB’s that post here, just read their comments for yourself.

I am not the assistant pastor of my dad’s church, I am over 500 miles away sadly 🙁 Making the preaching the focus of the service is not about putting 1 gift ahead of the other. Jesus reached people by preaching to them, not singing to them, so we try to follow the same example. I am not dismissing music, I totally agree with you too about music reaching people. I have seen music be a very powerful tool in reaching someone, but it just isn’t the focus in our services, that’s all. There is no scripture for a tie, ties didn’t exist back then, neither did skirts. There is nothing Biblical nor special about the dress code we use for our workers, it’s just what it is. We felt like there should be a standard so we set one, nothing spiritual about it, then again robes back in Bible times had nothing spiritual nor Biblical to do with them either.

We don’t pretend that the Bible dictates what workers wear, because it doesn’t, it’s just the standard we decided on, and we tell our people that. I agree that if your list is what makes up the tenants of a church, then the church is wrong.

We don’t believe any of those on that list, neither should any church. PastorLynn – I play in a gospel bluegrass group, and have for the last 12 years. Bluegrass is a popular style of music in our area. We play in all types of churches, have even played in black churches, all kinds of different denominations, lots of Baptist churches, in fact the name of the group is the Shenandoah Baptist Boys (someone put us on you tube a couple of years ago playing for a river baptism) so I suppose that I can speak with some authority about what “goes on” in IFB churches, also was an IFB myself for over 40 years, I know whereof I speak.

All of the stories of abuse that are told here, have a very strong ring of truth to them, based on my own personal experience. You are correct to say that abuse goes on in all types of churches, most “men” cannot handle the kind of “authority” they are given in these IFB churches, or any church that sets up a man as a king, as do IFB churches. Your argument about pointing out others bad behaviour to “excuse” your own is not a very good defense, I submit, as do hundreds of others here that there is something very wrong with the IFB “movement” as you call it. I was in my last IFB church for about 20 years, was a faithful, tithing member and wasn’t as much as allowed to take up the offering. Good question, I’m assuming it was either because I didn’t wear a tie, or that I was divorced (the IFB’s unpardonable sin) Let’s see how fundy/legalistic you really are. 1) Do you teach OT mandatory tithing?

Or NT graceful giving as each man purposeth in his heart so let him give. 2) Are women welcomed wearing slacks in your services?

3) Are the preacher’s personal convictions taught as standards to be followed in the church? 4) Are all types of christian music allowed and promoted in the church services. 5) Are deacons and ushers required to wear ties? 6) Are people of color welcomed? 7) Are folks in mixed marriages welcome? 8) Last but not least, are you KJVonly? Steve is presently dialoguing with Kenneth on their own thread, so probably many of your questions will be answered there, and feel free to join in.

I appreciate your obvious compassion and concern for the people of God, and the carrying of the gospel message to a lost and dying world. This is where I see a problem. In order to say most IFB churches are bad or legalistic would require extensive firsthand knowledge and research based on visiting most of the IFB churches in America, which I don’t think anyone has done. I could point you to multiple sites similar to this one, which points out the fallacies and wrong-doings of Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, and various other churches. IFB churches are not the only kind of churches that do wrong things sometimes, others do too. The reason being is that churches are made up of and run by people. People are naturally sinful, and are not perfect, and as long as churches, of any kind, are made up of, and run by people, horror stories of this kind will continue to happen, not just in IFB churches, but all different kinds of churches all across the world.

Christians who should be kind, and respectful, and gracious, and forgiving won’t be sometimes, because they are human, meaning sinful, and that lack of Christian behavior will sometimes hurt others, that does not mean IFB churches themselves are bad, it’s that sometimes the people in them and the people that run them, aren’t doing right which causes strife. I’m not saying there is no such thing as a bad IFB church, I know there is, but I also know of plenty of other kinds of churches that have hurt people, badly at that, I would know, we have had people who have come from other kinds of churches who were abusive and come to our IFB church and have found refuge and acceptance and peace here.

I do not concern myself with other churches; that is not my job nor my concern. Do I wish other IFB churches would get things right? Sure, but I am not their judge, God is.

I am not going to stand before God one day to answer for the sins of other IFB churches who did wrong, nor am I going to be judged on how I criticized other churches, I will stand before God for my own account while on earth, and what I did with the church he gave me, while I was here, nothing else. Our pastor teaches our church regularly to not concern ourselves with the deeds of other churches, that is for God to deal with, we have our own problems/needs to be deal with. He teaches us not to judge other churches, because we need to work on the beam in our own eye if we start exalting our church above others, or start condemning other churches for what they have done, they are made up of people just like we are, and to think we are not capable of similar sins, would be foolish, and that pride will bring us closer to falling. So no, we don’t criticize other churches, that is not any 1 Christian’s job, that is God’s job. IFB is not a denomination, nor an organization; it is a Movement, a loose one at that. Our church is completely independent, it doesn’t answer to anyone but God, no higher group of people, nor doctrine/teachings set by a special group, the church is run by itself, autonomously. So I have no other organization to answer for, they have to answer for God one day for their own actions.

I also feel for those whose lives have been shattered by IFB churches, but I also fell for the hurt for the ones who are hurt by other kinds of churches, that hurt goes around churches of all kinds. Pastor Lynn wrote: In order to say most IFB churches are bad or legalistic would require extensive firsthand knowledge and research based on visiting most of the IFB churches in America. That’s not necessarily true. Lets say this site is about Vanguard or Fidelity investments. Lets say that Vanguard and Fidelity were mistreating people and misusing their funds. Do I have to visit or experience every Vanguard or Fidelity franchise/business in America to decide that I don’t want to invest with them? Full Metal Alchemist Episodes English Dub Torrent.

After all Vanguard and Fidelity “are made up of and run by people. People are naturally sinful, and are not perfect, and as long as [financial institutions], of any kind, are made up of, and run by people, horror stories of this kind will continue to happen”. Of course not!!!

One bad investment and I would run the other way. The same applies to churches. Like Steve and others, I’ve had bad experience with the IFB. The IFB is not mishandling people’s money but something much more precious and important, their spirituality. The IFB is a type of church and as such are all similar. A particular IFB church calls itself an IFB church because it wants to associate with and subscribe to a certain set of beliefs and characteristics. One doesn’t need to experience all the IFB churches in America to know that there is something wrong with the IFB in general.

One bad experience with mishandling of my spirituality and I’m running the other way. I would agree with the financial analogy if IFB churches were at all similar, but they are not.

Vanguard and Fidelity are national corporations that have multiple locations, but they all report back to the same corporation, the corporation sets the rules/standards and the branches follow them, IFB churches, do not. IFB churches are autonomous of themselves, they do not answer to a center church, they each set their own standards. We are identifying ourselves by calling ourselves a Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. Independent – Self-explanatory. Each church is separate and has no direct affiliation to any other IFB church, nor do they answer to any other group, or board. Fundamental – Supposed to adhere to the fundamentals of the Bible as the basis for all beliefs and standards. Baptist – the history of the Baptists roots back to the Paulicians, never part of a split of the Catholic Church.

You can easily see similarities between different IFB churches, but similar does not mean same. You cannot judge all IFB churches based on others, since they are independent entities.

A lot of lost people have had horrible run-ins with Christians, who were awful to them. Should they make a judgment call on all Christians based on the few they’ve met and their bad experiences and similar stories that they have been told by friends and co-workers or random people on the internet? The answer is no. And in regards to “handling” your spirituality, no church OF ANY KIND should handle your spirituality, only you and God should. Your spirituality is between you and God, and no one or nothing else.

You should never EVER put your spirituality in the hands of other people, it needs to be in God’s hands only. As I said before, people are sinful, even pastors, so your Christianity or spirituality should never hinge on a person or church, eventually they will let you down and hurt you. That is why the Bible says multiple times to put your cares and trust in Him only, because he will never let you down or hurt you. IFB churches are autonomous of themselves, they do not answer to a center church, they each set their own standards. We are identifying ourselves by calling ourselves a Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. Pastor Lynn, this simply isn’t true.

The IFB would like you to think that of course, but most IFB churches are started as a “sister or daughter church” of another IFB church. My family helped start three of them. They weren’t allowed to operate unless they did things the exact same way as the “sending” church. There may not be a national convention that each church answers to or a corporate identity, but there is certainly not “independence” in the sense that the IFB would have you think. The term “Independent” is truly a misnomer. You are being fed lies about the IFB and I really hope that you will open your mind to hear the truth.

Katie is right. The IFB really is a brand – for lack of a better term. To think otherwise is nothing short of delusional. Here’s why A person who is an Independent Fundamental Baptist calls himself/herself such because they WANT to associate with a certain set of beliefs and values. You, for example, are no doubt associating with the IFB because that’s what you WANT to be – and for all reasons you have. This is YOUR association not mine.

I didn’t choose that association for you. The same is true for a particular church. If a particular church or congregation call themselves Independent Fundamental Baptist then they are associating with all that represents an Independent Fundamental Baptist church. That’s their association. If a church doesn’t want the association of Independent, Fundamental, Baptist, Methodist or whatever, then they shouldn’t associate as such.

The error in association is the church’s not mine. This isn’t blame shifting, but simple common sense. If a church calls itself Independent Fundamental Baptist then it needs to be willing to accept the associations that go along with it – both good and bad. I discussed this at length with Arv Edgeworth. You can read more if you wish.

I am not being fed lies, unless you are implying my Dad and both my grandpas have been feeding me lies my entire life? The IFB church my dad is pastor of was started back in 1944 by a group of people who split from a Christian Church. They went out, pooled their money together and bought some land and built a basement.

They decided to call themselves a baptist church, wrote a constitution based on IFB standards, and began looking for pastors. So they started an IFB church from scratch, no sister church or required beliefs came with it. They answer to no one but God. The church I am assistant pastor at now was originally a Bible church, when it started in 1972.

After 20 years they didn’t like the direction the Bible Church denomination was going so they changed them selves to a baptist church and adopted IFB standards. No sister church involved nor required beliefs. I do know of some churches that started off as sister chapels from other churches.

But the ones I know, once they became self-sustaining, Wrote up their own constitution, decided on their own standards, and went from there. It would not surprise me if some IFB churches didn’t do it that way, but then, I don’t answer for them, and they don’t answer for me. And trust me, I know of some of the “bad karma” so to speak that comes with the IFB name, I have personally witnessed to people who have had bad experiences with other IFB churches, and that made it difficult sometimes, but I don’t, my dad doesn’t, nor does my pastor use the term Independent Fundamental Baptist to identify ourselves with similar churches, we use it to show our basic belief: Independent – Self-explanatory. Each church is separate and has no direct affiliation to any other IFB church, nor do they answer to any other group, or board. Fundamental – Supposed to adhere to the fundamentals of the Bible as the basis for all beliefs and standards.

Baptist – the history of the Baptists roots back to the Paulicians, never part of a split of the Catholic Church. That is why we use that description. I could throw in evangelistic, Bible believing, in front of the name which would make our church a IFEBBB Church, but that is a bit too long. PastorLynn – You certainly speak with much more grace than we have come to expect from most of the IFB’s that comment on this site, as you yourself can verify, by simply reading your fellow IFBers posts, frankly I would be ashamed, were I you, to be associated with such folks.

Bob pointed out something that I would also really like an answer to, and that is, you don’t seem terribly concerned about those that represent IFB’s in such a nasty fashion, you know, get the beam out of your own “organization’s” eye first. How could you rationally explain away the hundreds of horror stories that have been shared on this site, and have very similar themes running through them? I know when I found this site last summer, having come out of an abusive IFB church, I felt like I was coming home to a place where folks could understand me, because we had similar tales to tell and share, and I have found healing for my hurting soul listening to others that fought a strong fight to break free from the oppressive and legalistic (cultish?) IFB.

Many, including myself have come out of it with our faith even stronger, some unfortunately have had their faith and their lives shattered, these are the ones that I especially feel for. And then others, although still reeling from the abuse, maintain their faith, but want nothing to do with “organized” religion. I did use the “mothership” reference, but I would echo Bob’s statement above. I don’t know what unsaved folks would be doing on this site, but I feel certain they could find more love, acceptance and the gospel here than most any IFB church on Sunday morning. This site is extremely confusing to me. Is its purpose to root out bad IFB churches and practices or to brand the IFB movement as a whole as bad due to bad experiences? I believe, as I am sure that you do, assigning a general consensus to a whole movement based on a few bad personal experiences is both unfair and judgmental.

Some of the arguments I have seen on here have been civil, some not so much, so I could brand this whole site as a bunch of negative/anti-authority/whiners but I am not, because that only describes a few people that post on the site, not the majority. Some of the horror stories I have read that have happened to people in IFB church hurts me. I hurt for them, and the pain they were caused by that church, and regret it and wish it never happened to you.

I have seen people get hurt by people in church and have seen that take them away from God and forget about church or Christian living in general. It is awful, but I have seen the same things happen in non-IFB churches.

There are a few bad apples in every bunch; you shouldn’t throw out the whole bushel based on a few bad apples. I am a IFB assistant pastor, I grew up in IFB churches my whole life. Both my grandpas were and my Dad is a IFB pastor. My parents made me go to church when I was little, I was given the choice later, and I chose to go, because it was the life that I wanted because I have seen God bless in so many ways, that I wanted to be a part of it. I was taught from the pulpit and at home that everything we believed and practiced was based on Bible principles. I was taught not to judge people at all, because the Bible says very clearly not to judge others or else you will be judged. I was taught to love and care for; open/accepting/inviting to everyone despite any of their short-comings or background or attitudes, that because God loves everyone, so should we.

I was taught to guard my feelings, and to not letting any person’s offence against me affect my relationship with God. I was taught to forgive others no matter what, because the Bible tells us to forgive, or else God won’t forgive us (not a reference to salvation, but blessing). This is my IFB experience(how IFB churches should be), and that is what I teach/preach from the pulpit or the classroom. I have probably been in 50 different IFB churches, all of which taught the same basic things. Sure, they may have been a few things here in there that I wouldn’t have done that way, but hey, who am I to judge?

Have I heard of some bad IFB churches, oh yeah I have, but have also heard of a ton of other bad churches, that are non-IFB. I am sorry that people have had these horrible experiences in IFB churches, but please do not brand the whole movement based on those individual churches, that is being judgmental, which is wrong. Something else I have noticed in the various arguments that I have read, is people talk a lot about the “tone” of the wording people post, most often in reference to people defending the IFB movement. How they need to be careful as to how they post and if they think Jesus would say or want us to say things like that, and would it draw people to Jesus? I totally agree, people need to watch their tones, but that is PEOPLE, not just IFB people, that goes for everyone.

I have seen quite a few posters use the phrase Mothership when referring to the IFB movement, is that a good tone? Would that attract people to Jesus?

Calling other Christians(whether you agree with them or not they are still Christians) calling them Bigots/Trolls/Mind-Readers/Slaves/ignorant/self-righteous, would that attract people to Jesus? And yes, Jesus did rebuke people, but in context, he rebuked scribes and Pharisees (both non-believers) about their false ways and trying to get Jesus to misstep, he did not rebuke random believers in crowds. I liked it when Paul said – if a man preach Christ, leave them alone. I wish more people would take this stance. People are so often busy infighting with other Christians, that we are missing the big picture. We should be reaching others for Christ, not arguing with each other about differences in church opinions.

What’s really more important? Though I do know that the purpose of this site is not to draw people away from churches; but unbelievers, who do not have the discerning Holy Spirit in the lives, could very easily misconstrue this site as a means to denounce churches all together, whether they be IFB or not. Just a few thoughts. Lynn, One of the main reasons I post on this site is because there are a number of Christians in IFB churches that are caught up in legalism and a cult-like system of religion. I would like to be there to help people like this who are looking for answers when they run into problems like so many mentioned on this site. No one is saying that all IFB churches are bad, just most of them.

I wish that you were as focused and concerned about your own house as you are about those outside your group. When I was in an IFB group, other churches and Christian organizations were fair game for criticism. When you are on the receiving end of criticism, all I hear is screaming and crying. When your leaders are held to a biblical standard, then you want to rule out all judgement ( really discernment).

As far as I am concerned, this site does not function as an outreach to unbelievers. Unsaved people have no place in these discussions, since they are still in darkness concerning the truth.

We are dealing with people who want to know the truth about God’s Word and the proper function of the church. Sorry GregI was not home at 10:00 PM tonight. I will try to watch on the Net though. I have enjoyed the civility of your discussion with Pastor Lynn. Both have treated each other like brothers.

We certainly can disagree without being disagreeable. “But why dost thou judge thy brother? Or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.” – Romans 14:10-12 I shudder when I think that one day I will stand before Christ and give an account for how I led His congregation. How much more to abuse a child!

To abuse a child and betray the trust given to the Pastor by the church is truly a “treasonable” offense. I fail God daily, but with His help and by His grace I will seek to lead His church (which I have been ordained and called to under-shepherd) in a way that would be pleasing to Him; and a way that will not to bring reproach to His name.

By His grace, I have never and WILL NEVER condone such rancid behavior. In response to the comment of “your fellow IBFers”; that’s just it, I am part of an Independent Baptist Church. I don’t run in “circles” or “camps”.

I’m really Independentreally. I’m not a Ruckmanite nor a Garlockite. I don’t take my marching orders from Greenville, SC or Hammond, IN or anywhere else. I try to be and hope I am the real deal. Pastor Rich – Believe me, if you have more than 50 people in your church you are going to hear about the 20/20 segment, it was devastating to the IFB.

Nearly all they reported can be found detailed right here on Baptist Deception, including my own personal story of spiritual abuse. The once proud Baptist faith has fallen on hard times, I am frankly ashamed to be identified with this once strong and good faith. I am helping a pastor friend of mine start a new work, and we are very small, and I have hinted loudly that we should drop Baptist from the title, because of all the negative connotations mounting against this once-proud name, but so far its fallen on deaf ears. Jesus Christ is not coming back to planet earth to look for Baptists, He’s coming back to look for folks that are covered by His blood, and it frankly does not matter what the name over the door says.

Hi Kenney – You said “I say this because I noticed you made the remark that you would like to debate one of the (Pastors) who wrote you.” I inferred, as most any rational person would, that you were a Pastor. So stop with the sarcasm, because that will only get my sarcasm going and then we will appear to be like 3rd graders on the playground. Your defense of a 17th century, antiquated, english translation done by baby-sprinkling Anglican translators, using a Catholic Priests (Erasmus) Greek New testament, which originally contained the Apocrypha, ironically, demonstrates your lack of faith that our Almighty God could preserve a bible that english speaking people of today could actually read. I will close with the same closing Paul used to the Corinthians, 2 Corinthians 6:11-13.

I know you won’t understand it in the KJV, so feel free to look it up in the NIV, or any other good newer translation. Greg obviously you need to practice on your reading skills because no where in my post did I indicate that I was a pastor and I find nothing hilarious about my post that is unless you find the truth funny. You guys who defend the hogwash posted on this site act like a bun h of spoiled kids who hate any kind of authority.

By the way Greg, I did not speak to Steve in an abusive manner actually no worse than Jesus spoke to the heritics and Pharisees of his day. We are commanded to earnestly contend for the faith on delivered to the saints in Jude: 3. Steve – The site is acting very strange today, feel free to edit my dual responses if you wish.

I can just imagine the aggravation that the IFB’s must feel when they click on what they probably think is going to be a cheerleader site and then find out you are exposing them. I must be alittle dense because I just recently realized this, and I am sure that’s why we have so many trolls come. And it seems our boy Kenney is somewhat of a mind-reader “knowing” why you left the mothership and all, btw, isn’t there scripture (KJV that is) against such things? Kenney – I know its early in the year but I think your post will be a strong contender for “most hilarious” for 2011. On a serious note, please re-read your what you have written here. Do you believe that “your” Saviour would have spoken this way?

We are used to folks like you and are very familiar with your mindset, but really, do you think an unbeliever that read your post would be attracted to your faith? Would a loving God of the universe, who provided a way of salvation for all of us sinful men have spoken to Steve the way you did here? Steve is a big boy and can speak for himself, but you indicate you are a pastor, how is this ministering to Steve, and any needs he may have? In His Grace, Greg. Hey Steve, I have spent as much time on your site as my stomach can stand. I know from reading several of your responses to pastors trying to reason with you that you simply enjoy arguing.

I’m not going to waste my time arguing with you simply because I know you enjoy arguing and you can’t stand being wrong, in fact you refuse to be wrong and it doesn’t matter to you how far out in left field you have to go to refute sound do tribal teaching. I wonder if you realize how wushu washy you are about the garbage you are spreading about the IFB CHURCH! That’s right I said CHURCH! The last time I checked the Church was an institution that Jesus himself ordained when he told Peter that upon this rock (Peter) will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. You know, my Bible teaches that the only person who attacks the Church of God is Satan.

I really don’t understand what your problem is and I really don’t understand why if you were so unhappy in the IFB why you waited until you were 25 years old to leave? I really doubt they locked you in and held you hostage so I’m guessing (based on your arrogant unsubmissive attitude you portray throughout your writings) that you were perfectly happy with the Church you were attending until something caused you to blow a gasket. I’m guessing that you were blatantly sinning and the Pastor or other member of the Church called you out on it and instead of doing what the Bible says for you to do which is to repent, not to man but God( were Baptist not Catholic).

My other guess is that here you are, 25 all grown up and someone in the Church suggested to you that maybe it’s time for you to start serving the Lord (He’s still waiting by the way) and you didn’t want to deal with the acountability and responsibility of being a leader in the Church. By the way hiding yourself behind the mask of this website does not keep you hidden from God.

You will have to answer for every idle word you spew out in anger about Gods Church on this website. I do want to suggest to you that maybe you wouldn’t seem so ignorant if maybe you tried doing a little homework about the Bible and almighty God’s Church before you start ranting about them. I called you wishy washy earlier based on a couple of topics I picked out from your rants. Number one, you claim that the KJV is full of errors and it’s just a copy of a copy of a copy. That part, as much as I hate to admit it I agree with based on the fact that we no longer have the original transcripts. You even said this yourself but later on in your rant you claim that the modern versions are more accurate because they follow the original manuscripts more closely than the KJV.

Didn’t you just finish saying that we no longer have the original transcripts? So how in the world do you or anybody know if these modern translations are closer to the “original” transcripts or not? Another point you tried to make about us KJVonlyist is that we claim that the KJV is more accurate because it’s older. How about trying to not put words in our mouths. Although I do believe the KJV to be Gods preserved word to the English speaking people I don’t make this assumption based on it’s age, but you on the other hand do make assumptions that older means better (more accurate) when it comes to the age of which text the modern versions are translated from when you claimed that the modern versions are more accurate because they are translated from earlier manuscripts. Make up your mind! What’s it gunna be olders better or not.

Oh yeah and the Obam/Bush comparison was a horrible example of age not meaning better. Obama is the worst president in history. I am getting tired of typing on my phone so I’M going to try to wrap it up.

I am just really trying to figure out why you hate the IFB Church so much that you felt the need to create a website totally dedicated to attacking the Church of my Lord and Savior Jeaus Christ by spreading lies and misguided information. Yes the IFB Church is a relatively small organization and are in no way affiliated with one another but in case you didn’t realize it God did promise to preserve himself a people who hold true tomhis laws and statutes which isn’t a bad thing as you try to make it our to be. From reading most of you hate filled message I noticed that your biggest beef with the IFB Church is it’s strictness. Well in case you didn’t notice Jesus was never as relaxed in his teachings as you and your ecumenical buddies want it to be.

Jesus was always cut and dry, your either hot or cold there is no middle ground. I don’t think you even realize what the word fundamental means. Let me explain it to you. Fundamental means we stick stricly to the teachings of the Bible. If that means we are viewed as radical then so be it. I would rather God say well done my good and faithful servant than to hear him say what’s the matter with you?

Are you retarded? I gave you an instruction book and you took it upon yourself to rewrite it to fit your self. People talk about how crazy fundamental Islamist are and that they are the radicals in their religion but actually they are the ones who are truly living the life that the quaran tells them to the other ones you don’t hear about are the ecumenical ones like you and you followers who choosemto live the watered down versions. Well I’m tired of writing on this phone and it’s getting late anyways so I better stop.

I can’t wait to see the brutal way you attack my reffutal because we all know how much you hate to let someone else have the last word, but if you are serious about having a debate the. I say this because I noticed that you made the remark that you would like to debate one of the Pastors who wrote you. I will only debate you with scripture though and not your personal agenda. Oh yeah I forgot you don’t believe the scripture since nobody has a perfect Bible. One last question, if you believe that no Bible is perfect and that fallible man has corrupted the word of God then why don’t we all just burn all of our Bibles since none of us know what is genuine or what was added by fallible man.

Oh never mind I forgot Almighty Steve will enlighten us all since he is all knowing and perfect and undoubtably more superior to the almighty infallible eternal God who is the same yesterday today and forever who created everything including his own word but is simply way to incompetent to preserve his word to all generations as he promised. Do you really believe that God is mighty and intelligent enough to create all things but is not capable of keeping some ink on paper unchanged for all mankind. Yes I know you are saying to yourself that man did the translating so therefore is is flawed. But don’t you think that All knowing God took measures to keep his own promise to mankind? I am serious about talking to you more about this so I am going to give you my email and phone number if you would like my mailing address contact memandmI will provide you with that also. Anyways sorry about all the typos as I mention I’m typing on my phone So it’s kinda hard to do.

Sincerely Kenneth Fuquay. Hope To hear from you soon. Kenney – I just want to let you know that even though its early in the year, I think your letter will be a strong contender for “most hilarious” post for 2011.

On a more serious note, please re-read your post, we know your mindset, we have seen if often, but Kenney, please look at what you have written here, do think your Saviour would be happy with its overall tone. Do you think that an unbeliever that read this would be attracted to “your” Saviour?, I love our Lord more than ever, I just can’t imagine Him speaking to somone like you have spoken to Steve here, but Steve is a big boy and can speak for himself. In His Grace, Greg. Hello again everyone, I was just informed that the church/school i used to work at will be closing their’ ‘mens dormitory’. They’re going to be turning it into a prophets chamber and meeting place, which will leave a young man homeless but to live in the office of the ministry he works in, the printing ministry of the church.

He was told he could certainly live in the church office if he wished. The only problem with this, is the whole idea of the chemicals and fumes which always reside in the place. Their’ decision is to put in a ‘vent fan’ to remedy this issue. I personally lived for 2 years without actually installed heat, cool, or even a window in a room while working there. I’m sick of allowing this sort of treatment to continue. There are other factors with such things as debts owed my company, rumors damaging my business, and other things that have ultimately drove me from even caring about attending church any longer. I would like to know if I would be in error by doing what my business partner has suggested and just file lawsuit against the church for this garbage.

Such things as the room I resided in were pointed out as needing to have an egress by even the Fire Marshall before I took over residence in the room. I tried repeatedly to take care of the issue with them, but things eventually went to ‘if you want a window in there, then put it in.’ Folks, it wasn’t my responsibility to pay for that window.

I mean, they owe my business a good chunk of money, and before I left were demanding rent from me for a ‘room’ and didn’t even have a rental agreement! I wasn’t a student there! It was even in my agreement with the pastor to not have to pay rent while I worked for the ministry! But since that pastor has returned to evangelism, the ‘new blood’ has begun causing issues with ideas which had been shot down by the previous pastor for over a year. So, in light of the fact that once the boy leaves I’ll have no other ties to worry about, cause he most certainly will not chose to live in an office where he works like that, I’d like to know if I would be in the wrong or just putting this bunch of phoney christrians out of business once and for all.

I hate that things have gotten this far, but that church has just pushed too much. As far as I’m concerned, if they’re not practicing what they preach, and haven’t for quite some time, then I’m not going to feel guilty about closing down a business, cause it’s obviously not a real church.

Any input would be helpful and appreciated. Lars, This is certainly a difficult issue to handle and I don’t know for sure what is the best way to go here.

I would ask yourself if you are able to just walk away from the whole mess and chalk it up as a lesson learned. I know that would be difficult in its own way, but it would be good to just disengage from the whole mess. If you did want to pursue a legal remedy, I would give the church leadership the option of mediating the situation with you and another objective church in the area. This would give the church a way to avoid going to court which is Biblical priority for believers. I understand this option is not likely to go very far because these kinds of churches don’t like accountability, especially from “liberal” churches.

However, I think it is important to do due diligence in presenting the church a way to settle the issue in a fair and un-biased manner. I would suggest talking to a reputable church leader in the area, one who understands these types of churches and is willing to confront problems. This way at least, you give the offending party an opportunity to settle the matter in a fair way, without being pressured into court.

I was previously employed in a combined IFB Church/School setting. I was also a member of the church for many years.

I can honestly say this from reading many of the posts on this site. Many of the ‘bad’ aspects of the IFB church and its’ subsequent affiliates are most certainly not what could be deemed as a real ‘Church of God’. Now don’t get me wrong. I willingly turned in my resignation of my duties with the church and corresponding college. But, it was due to the facts that what I saw and was subject towards on a daily basis, not only offended me, but also offended and sometimes shook the very beliefs I had in God, the Bible, and Salvation. I’ve been saved for many years.

I’ve also studied the bible since a small boy originally in catholic and lutheran schools and churches growing up. I’ve personally NEVER heard many of the ‘facts’ that were stated from the pulpit of the IFB church during sermons ever mentioned during my times in the other faiths.

Such things as ‘The Lutherans believe you can lose your’ salvation.’ which was touted from that pulpit too many times for my taste. The conservative politics, the ‘gay agenda’ and other matters which truly meant and still in my humble opinion mean nothing to true growth as a christian have always flown about the church. The allegiance to the preacher, to the church body ‘members’ and sole provision of those areas are strictly out of line in regards to scripture. Yes, the church is the bride of Christ.

Yes, god will always be in the midst of the body of believers. And yes, once saved always saved. But, even though they preach salvation through faith and not by works of our own doings, they never live up to their’ own preaching in these regards. Even going so far as toward paying their’ debts in order to ‘continue the ministry of the gospel’. Folks, I’m not posting this to anger people. But let’s just face facts in some areas.

The IFB’s are more of a cult, than anything else. The totally allegance to a preacher, to a church building, to fellow members with even regards as to never even paying debts owed because of a title they may hold inside a church, are totally out of line with reality and life in general. I left that IFB church for the simple fact they weren’t truly following God’s word. I don’t know everything about the bible, and will never claim to. But facts are facts. Being administratively involved, and involved with other IFB people and places over the years has never offered anything but what could truly be deemed cult-like activity in many regards. While I agree there ARE many good people, schools, and churches that are IFB related, my personal experiences have shown the one I was personally involved with to be anything but Godly, and anything but ‘innocent’ to the ‘ridicules’ of the world.

Terry, Have you ever either driven or been in the passenger side of a vehicle when encontering a very dense fog, so dense that headlights barely help and nothing can be seen ahead either by oncoming traffic or by the people in your vehicle? Your comments are valid so i’m not trying to invalidate you in any way. In this case I do feel the fog is the deception itself. I’m hoping in time it will life and, as I said in previous posts, you’ll be able to somewhat distance yourself emotionally from its effects. I did figure out that no matter where I go, I’ll probably have to deal with it so running away is not necessarily the answer, although sometimes it’s definitely a temptation. I’ve tried that approach.

If it’s not direct in a physical sense, it’s indirect in other ways. I had to go through this process myself. My brethren are probably convinced that I want to ignore the Holy Spirit which is not at all what i want to do.

Nor do I want to remove any type of standard from my life. I never asked for a free-for-all either.

I do think a person can be very emotionally close to a situation cause I also went through that phase. Work with somebody who is a state licensed professional who also has a theological background and understands some of these religious issues. I realize in some areas this might be challenging cause some are very hostile to Christianity and others aren’t, and i don’t want to send you into a hostile environment, perhaps a neutral but not luke-warm carefree environment. I know that some will label everything that doesn’t match with their lifestyle lukewarm. This isn’t really what I’m talking about. You will meet new people.

You will have a new start and you will get a new chance. I think it’s important that you not only rely on websites or the internet but that you find fellowship someway or some support in the community where you are currently living as well as professional help.

Some issues you are dealing with make you the victim of criminal conduct. Healing occurs with time. I think that these situations may help you cross that bridge. Do you understand what I’m trying to say as you cross over that bridge and heal? Terry, I wish so much that 30 years ago, I had taken the advise i’m giving you before i got into a fight and acted impulsively during a very emotional time in my life. Imipusle got easier after that. Sometimes I wish I could go back and turn the events around so I made that call about an hour or even a day sooner than I did before the fight.

I’m sure I could have had a third party intervene. I’ll just say plans had been made and when I wanted to change those plans at the last minute, my immediate desire for a sudden change in plans waqs not welcomed.

I don’t need to go further. I hope that you won’t take this the wrong way and I hope that you will talk with somebody. It could even be a physician at an urgent care center or a licensed medical social worker. It doesn’t hurt to be evaluated not only for the spiritual and emotional aspect of depression but also the physical aspect too. Initially I think it’s good to find somebody with a combination of a pschololigal and medical background to make an initial evaluation. If you don’t need the medical aspect, they can refer you outside the medical profession to a PH.D.

Start at least with somebody in the medical profession though. While there are some good IFB churches, the majority employ most of the tactics of cults. While railing against the abuse of the RC church, the Pastors set themselves up with a constitution that gives them full control of the church with the deacons acting as a rubber stampers. I’ve witnessed pastors allowing BJU/PCC to run their churches, forbidding other colleges access to their church, refusal to discipline church members for various conflicts, refusal to follow Matthew 18 in counseling church members, and just plain old ignorance in regards to translations while clinging to a version of the Bible which none of their members even understand due to archaic language.

The sermon topics miss entire doctrines such as grace and christian liberty while self righteousness is held as a virtue(we are superior to those “other” christians-evangelicals). And this is the “more normal” versions of the IFB variety. The far wacked out IFBers consist of Faithful Word Baptist (Stephen Anderson) who are so ignorant and plain stupid as to believe that Jesus actually wore pants.

One KJVO site on facebook had an article as to how Jesus was coming back to end the Federal Reserve system. Then there’s the nutjobs of Westboro Baptist who protest every funeral they can find. Oh and lets not forget the other wack jobs who blow up abortion clinics to stop killing(oxymoronic at the least). To look at the IFB and think that these chuirches actually represent any version of Jesus that the world wants or needs is insanity.

Jesus needs to fire the IFB PR Firm giving him a bad name. I agree with many of your concerns about the IFB and like the way you present your concerns in an objective fashion. I have “visited” some of the anti-IFB groups on Facebook, most of which require joining the group to be able to make any input. I have been surprised by some of those group that actually are as bad–or even–worse that the IFB they condemn and are seeking to expose as a cult.

They don’t seem to realize that though they oppose much of the corruption in the IFB, they are not much different in the way they operate their groups. If you say anything that can be construed as calling the “group” into question–well I was just trying to find out what one was all about and one person red her own “red flags” into my phraseology (she thought I talked too much like an IFBer) and the group administrator immediately showed me the “exit” from the group and essentially told me that if I did not agree with anything then I was invited to leave. So I left, and then they were mad, yet glad that I did. I think groups like that have become the very thing they condemn and are just as bad in their own way. I appreciate YOUR honesty and forthrightness about your experiences and you willingness to tolerate views that may not completely agree with you.

There is one thing that I think is important to point out, and that is, groups that gather for various reasons have the right to set up their own rules as to how they will operate. Churches, on the other hand, are owned and divinely appointed by God. God has given instructions on exactly how churches are to function and operate.

God sets all the rules about who is in, and who is out, how the leadership is appointed and functions. Churches become cults when God and His word are no longer the real authority, rather, human leadership, rules, and teaching are substituted for genuine, and Divine authority. No one in church leadership has the right to act outside of God’s revealed will and plan in Scripture. If they do, bring it to their attention. If they don’t recognize God’s authority in Scripture, get out of that church and find one that truly desires to honor God and the authority that is God’s word. I attended a KJV-only independent fundamental baptist church for 2 years.

A lot of zeal for door-to-door and tract evangelism, but kinda cold and intolerant of other evangelical and Reformed Christian groups. When I came to believe in the doctrines of grace (like the Calvinist Baptist Charles Spurgeon), my pastor asked, “how did you get into that mess?” I felt I was in good company with Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, John Bunyan, John Eliot, William Carey, Adoniram Judson. Many of these fundamental baptists tell people to say the sinner’s prayer and equate that with salvation, as though the sinner’s prayer is magical. One time the pastor boasted that over 200 people “made a decision,” after the easter play, but only a couple returned. The pastor devoted a whole sermon on dancing and why it’s wrongridiculouseven though dancing is mentioned in the bible as a response to God’s goodnessthey condemn drinking wine when God says He gave it to us for a blessing Psalm 104:15.

Many of them major on pet peevesthey talk about being born again and grace—but what they do is give the grace in one hand and take it away with the law with other hand with all their rules about dress, contemporary music, etc. The whole King James only position is silly and divisiveRuckman being the cause of stirring up anger and bitterness in these people. IFB people I have known are very ignorant on the history of bible manuscripts and how translations work which is why many non IFB Christians see them as ignorant and backwoodsy people. John the Baptist the first Baptist, the apostle Paul read the King James, the trail of blood, and other historical inaccuracies I heard while attending an IFB. They hardly ever do the Lord’s Supper–like 4 times a year, even though the early church did it regularlyI could keep going on, but what’s the point? If you’re an open-minded KJV-only Baptist, you’ll be open to what other conservative Christians have to sayif not, then you’ll remain ignorant and self-righteously convinced that there is no truth outside KJV-only Baptists. Katie, Judges, lawyers, and politicians are expected to be exceptional debaters.

Disagreement is definitely a major responsibility in their professions. Public and private lawyers often go to court, so at least court cases become public domain, except perhaps in juvenile court. As members of the American Bar Association, certain levels of education, expertise, and licensing is required.

In many instances, other details also become disclosed when they are politically involved. This might also include lobbyists. These professions are extremely analytical and persuasive, we hope.

Membership in a denomination or association is not necessarily bad. I do think this information should be disclosed though prior to membership for adults and teenagers. A lawyer is going to be hesitant about signing a contract without knowing all aspects of the terms.

Many churches and their affiliated organizations encourage blind trust and some oppose any involvement in any court, or did at the time I was a teenager, although that has changed. How much control does an external organization hold over another organization? What are the conditions and terms of membership?

How are they enforced? What is the financial influence one organization may have upon another? These are really the questions I’m asking. Are there other more subtle forms of influence and control one organization may hold over another. Organizations vary so I don’t expect the answers to be the same and may vary widely. We have the internet now. Back then, it was much harder to do research and information wasn’t always available.

Also many were just encouraged to have a blind sense of trust. Many churches do list their affiliations or denominations in the weekly church bulletin as well as on the papers they issue at their monthly business meetings. Many denominations also list it on their signs on their front lawns. I would also like this information to be shared with adults and teenagers during membership classes for ordinances like Baptism by immersion and communion. Methodist churches practice confirmation. They are also listed in the telephone book and other directories as well as many hymnbooks. I’m not saying a church can’t or shouldn’t join another organization, but i encourage written disclosure for teenagers and adults.

I’m not Roman Catholic; however, many mainline denominations do take much more time preparing their converts for their sacraments than the independent Baptist Church I attended and mention in these posts. I do not think any decision should be entered into very lightly just to require a quick counsel at the altar or maybe one or two visitations by a member. I really think the pastoral staff need to know the members and be involved more in the process. I don’t like assembly-line statistical Christianity.

In a very strict church, such as the one I mention in my posts, especially, I feel that any decision is comparable to entering a convent or monestary in respect to their expectations. I think it’s unfair to approach such an important matter with such haste. Take your time. I hear about numbers.

Many bad decisions have been made solely for the desire to increase numbers. Numbers then become their own Gods. The Bible is supposed to be the focus. We are supposed to look to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. If we want numbers, study math and algebra and statistics and probability.

2 Corinthians 5:17 talks about the desire for a new life. Phil 4:8 plus the 10 commandments of the Old Testament and the Greatest Commandment of all are so important.

Study the apostles and epistles first. Maybe take three to six months. The best membership class “I ever attended in my life was nine weeks long and included the beliefs and values with scriptural references, history of the denomination and Christian movements which influenced it, and expectations of the church for the new member as well as expectations of the new member of the church. It was taught by the minister. I learned about the church constitution also. I definitely think that more preparation is needed prior to and even after marriage.

The military often recommends attendance at a military information school or “marrying into the military.” That’s a major lifestyle change. I think some churches can be a major lifestyle change. I think more time needs to be invested before decisions are made.

Also individually, more research needs to be done. A church should welcome a slower decision that’s more thought out than a hasty one. More information is available now than was available back when I made my college decision.

I didn’t hate the church. I would have liked it a lot better had the minister worked with my family and addressed the concerns.

We want to trust the people in church, especially in church. We want to feel safe in church most of all. The college actually had a very good arts program.

I do think there is a need for a classical or traditional arts program on many college campuses that doesn’t require one to compromise one’s values. Private funding may be a different issue but I do feel college campuses ask for very expensive tuitions and need to provide education that will be recognized academically and professionally as education takes time. I do not have an issue with any college that wants to be privately funded. Arv, I really don’t understand why IFBers are so against the word denomination. The dictionary defines a denomination as “a name or designation, especially one for a class of things.” and “a class or kind of persons or things distinguished by a specific name.” and “the act of naming or designating a person or thing.” What’s the big deal? It just means that IFB churches are similar.

As an attorney I’m in a private practice group, but I’m not paid by the group, I’m paid by my clients. I’m considered an “independent” private practice attorney. Does that mean I shouldn’t be called an attorney? I’m still an attorney even though I carry the designation “independent”. The same holds true for the IFB.

Each individual IFB church is “independent” but collectively they are known as IFB. The IFB churches are a “class” of church. That’s just another way of saying denomination. It’s just how our society identifies a group of like minded churches. Arv, I agree with your post in part.

I recognize that good IFB churches exist. By the way, this site deals with Independent Baptist churches, not all Baptist churches. If there are churches of any sort, that are hurting people and teaching false things about following Christ, shouldn’t we point that out. Love insists that I warn people about the dangers in so many IFB churches. As for the good ones, They are responsible to distinguish themselves from the bad churches.

The problem is, in my opinion, that the bad IFB churches far outnumber the good ones. That is why a number of churches have dropped the Fundamental and Baptist label.

The reputation of the Fundamental Baptist name has been greatly damaged. The cause of this is not from the outside, but from the inside.

Their reputation has been ruined from within because leadership in IFB churches have not been held accountable by church members to follow Scripture. Also, sin has been covered up far too many times when it needed to be dealt with in a biblical manner. This is why the ” IFB brand” has been tarnished beyond repair. You had better get used to people criticizing IFB churches, and if you don’t like it, I would suggest changing your name to something that is less corrupted. Arv: The difference between an independent church and a denomination is that an independent church has local autonomy and can choose to do everything within its congregation.

If they seek outside sources for their work, they vote, and then can choose a local business such as local book and music retailers, printers, restaurants and caterers, subcontractors, etc. If you ask about the colleges they recommend or what mission boards they use, that may give you a clue.

Some larger organizations may be very controlling and others may allow the church to keep their local autonomy. This may also include smaller accrediting bodies as well as where they recruit their ministers. You might say that if the external organizations where they belong are very controlling, that no longer makes the church truly independent then.

That’s the argument. Some churches are very open and will publish all their affiliations in the church bulletin and disclose such information at all business financial meetings. Others are more secretive. I’ve mentioned in other posts that I have had very different experiences with independent churches so I don’t they they are all the same either. I am not necessarily talking about your church. I am just mentioning a specific church I attended when I was in high school and college.

I am not talking about every single independent church or every denomination in the country. There are so many. I’ve had good experiences with Baptists as well. I’m not Baptist myself though. I do think it’s important to know this information about your church. It should be available in places like your church library, financial sheets from business meetings, notations for publications and copyright, and also with events that the church sponsors. This also could include campgrounds.

Does it rent the full facility and expect exclusive usage or does it share with other groups who might also be staying at a particular place for a retreat? Some of the larger organizations may just be external supplementary resources while others may be very controlling. If the external organizations are very controlling, then the pastor loses some of that local autonomy. This is especially true if they practice impulsive excommunication because that adds an element of fear and intimidation.

Some churches do have boards of trustees, boards of directors, elders, and deacons, etc. Others just have one person in charge.

Since each group is different, I can’t say they are all the same. All I can say is I had a particular experience with one that called itself “independent” and later I learned that it was a member of a very controlling organization. The second church was very small almost like a home Bible Study but far away just in a different direction. I only went to that one two or three times before I started looking for something a little closer. I mentioned that I liked the third one very much but it was a little further and I was still looking for something within walking distance from my home, or at least within a direct bus route. Erik – How long have you been drinking the Kool-Aid, no copyright on the KJV?

You’ve got to be kidding me! Yes the KJV is copywritten. The University presses of Oxford and Cambridge have copyright privileges on the KJV and have for centuries, it is the “Crown Copyright” This lie (about the KJV not being copywritten) was started by the biggest liar in the country, Peter Ruckman, in a propaganda book he wrote several years ago. Now I’ve told you who the biggest liar in the country is, now how about the 2nd biggest liar? Gail Anne Ludwig, Kalada, Latessa, Riplinger!

That’s right boys and girls your fundy hero has been married 3 times, all husbands still alive. I guess her ex’s couldn’t put up with her lies either. She lies on nearly every page of New Age Bible Versions.

She loves charts in this book comparing the “perverted” bibles with the KJV, funny thing is, she often times misquotes the “perverted” bibles and at times also misquotes the KJV. Oh well, I guess lies are ok as long as she is serving the Lord! She blasphemes when she says that God told her what to write down in NABV and she was just acting as His secretary. She confuses Bishop Brooke Foss Wescott who was instrumental in providing us with a very good greek new testament with William Wynn Wescott, the founder of the London Hermetic order of the Golden Dawn. When confronted with her many mistakes she will not admit any wrongdoing. She has attacked many serious defenders of the KJV such as David Cloud of “O Timothy Ministries” and the Waites of the “Dean Burgon Society.” Quite a spicy girl Ms.

I just dig that acrostic algebra! I love it when uneducated IFB’s start running down them “wicked Catholics” when they wouldn’t even have thier KJV had it not been for the faithful efforts of Erasmus, (catholic priest who remained a faithful catholic til his dying day) it was he who provided the greek new testament which the KJV translators used for the KJV. Erik I really hope and pray at least a tiny ray of light is starting to seep into your pitiful, indoctrinated brain. You have been fed lies, you have come on here meaning well and exposed your ignorance for all the world to see. I used to be where you are. Please begin to study these things for yourself, but until you do please stick to topics that you know at least something about. I know this won’t get printed, but I’ll submit it anyway.

There are about 25 million Baptist churches in America, according to some estimates. They are individually governed. There is no “IFB” denomination. It is a straw horse that only exists in someone’s mind. That’s why they are called independent. If there are a few hundred, or even a few thousand, that hold to extreme positions in some areas of doctrine or practice, they do not answer to any other fundamental Baptist churches, nor are the majority of good fundamental Baptist churches accountable for the individual actions of others. If there is any blame that actually exists, let’s direct it toward those that are actually guilty.

Being “independent” Baptist is actually a misnomer in my opinion. If such Baptist churches are anything, it is NOT independent. They may be independently governed without interference from a church organization, denomination, but they are certainly not completely independent. They have certain connections with their pet colleges and the have their pastor’s conventions and conferences where they all gather to keep up with what is going on with and in the IFB.

So, in many ways they do have and maintain connections with each other and the separate from other churches which don’t “toe the IFB line” to the satisfaction of the rest. These interconnections and inter-relationships with other IFB churches, ministries, educational institutions, and IFB pastors with other IFB pastors are informal and perhaps loose, but they make the term “independent” quite misleading and somewhat inaccurate. Idolatry can set into a church or even various Christian affiliated organizations which a body of believers supports when the emphasis changes from the Father, Son, and Holy spirit to mathematical statistics. Then the pastor becomes a “celebrity” or “recruiter” or mid-level manager when we look at the whole picture even if a particular local body calls itself independent. An association may have a looser structure than a more traditional denomination.

Still there is a higher level of command, especially if certain aspects of the minister’s salary are financially supported by these outside organizations as well as the body of believers. This is especially true if they practice impulsive excommunication on a regular basis. It may be overt or secretive. I’m not saying a church doesn’t or shouldn’t want to grow in numbers, just that the emphasis on numbers doesn’t become a greater focus than God’s definition of Christian growth defined in the New Testament Apostles and epistles.

It can even happen with ordinances or sacraments or any other aspect of Christian life found in the church or its supporting ministries when the one exceeds the balance of the others. Often the church doesn’t see this happening, nor do the outside organizations supporting the church and vise versa. It could even be something materialistic. And it could be the civic laws that apply for occupational safety of the structure and its insured vehicles and drivers, etc This is what I’ve been talking about with my posts. I’m not suggesting a free-for-all environment by any means. If I wanted a free-for-all environment, I wouldn’t be going to a church in the first place.

Sometimes churches can close opportunities though with vague understanding or definitions or applications. We wouldn’t dare ask that everyone stop reading books soley cause there are bad books or magazines on the market. That would be ridiculous. Yet we do this with the arts which include literature as well as music, dance, and visual arts.

I do believe that there are principles that apply in Phil 4:8. I’m not just writing off any limitations. Some will think if I use restrictions I’m talking about something else so I’ll use another word. I’m not asking you to abandon your restrictions if they help you lead a Godly life either. I do believe convictions come from the Holy Spirit. We have to look at the Bible. Prayer or any other aspect of the church life should not become a vain act but must have meaning.

Private life is as important as what we do in public too. God can see our hearts.

Other humans can only see outward appearances. God can see the whole picture and many times believers in a body can’t if one’s family and friends fall outside the social circle of the church. We have to becareful about hasty judgments. We don’t want to feel expendable in the very church and it’s affiliated organizations where we choose to participate, and many also want to be productive citizens in our civic responsibilities and volunteer work also. Certain practices, whether they are directed at an individual or just one becomes aware of them, cause one to feel expendable. Church is about teaching, building, and rebuilding lives.

At the very last breathing moment, a sinner turned to Jesus Christ and asked for forgiveness and was forgiven. In life there are times of achievements, and unfortunately also times of setbacks. There may be situations where that correction occurs outside of the walls of a particular organization. I realize this. Church is also supposed to be a place of accountability not just for the attender or new member, but also for the highest levels of administration and everyone between and that includes the first time visitor.

Discipline, when it occurs, is supposed to occur with a sense of humility and with chances. I do believe as Christians we are supposed to care about the physical needs of those within our walls as well as the outreaches in the communities. This may even include exceptional situations like national disasters. When does pastor worship start?

I believe it’s a gradual process and in many cases, the believers are not even aware that they worship a particular pastor. I don’t know if this is even intentional. The focus is supposed to be the Bible rather than a member’s name. When that name starts to be substituted by other members and mentioned as often or more than the Bible, or when a church falls apart because a certain person leaves, then it’s pastor worship, or any worship of any leader.

That’s when it becomes idolatry. It doesn’t even have to be a person. It can be a practice or even an object. When the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost no longer seem to be the focus, that also becomes idolatry. This can happen gradually.

When it becomes imbalanced, it becomes idolatry. When there’s no accountability, it also becomes idolatry. I’m not implying that churches should be free-for-all environments. That’s not scriptural either. I’m not referring to “itching” ears in my posts. This is gonna be long and my prayer is SOMEBODY gets to read it.

First of all know that I speak the truth in love and that I WILL see all of you again someday. So we can talk it over then if you want.

It’s a shame to see the folks on here suffering from such a delusion. In this “End Times” world we live in, it’s not suprising you would utilize your God given free will to choose a more “seeker sensitive” approach to evangelism.

Legalism is another way fo sayinbg you follow the Law. If you say “My God wouldn’t send ________ people to hell your right.he doesnt exist. If a Judge allowed murders to go free he wouldn’t be a good judge, right?

Then how can you even imagine that God would let you get away with sin? Those who have not accepted Jesus as their personal saviour before they die WILL GO TO HELL forever. I don’t want you to go to hell (and it seems like alot of folks on here won’t regardless) then get saved!

But their is a sickness in this worldly world. People think God will let them do whatever they want. Why do things God’s way if doing it the world’s way gets more results, right? Why “offend” people, right?

The Ten Commandments are offensive to all sinners (like me), because we are all guilty. The only way I can “judge righteously” is to discern wether or not they have been saved through faith in Jesus and asked Him to be LORD of their life. Everything else is a personal decision that they will have to be accountable for.but NONE of the legalistic convictions of IFB members are going to make a differnece in the condition of their personal salvation.

The Bible says many will get into Heaven by the “skin of their teeth”. Throughout history God’s people have been persecuted for trying to live Godly lives that seem weird or offensive to their contemporaries. Their is one indisputable fact. If it’s in The Bible it’s true. If you think it was written by men, you don’t know a thing about the TRUE history of how we got the Bible from the apostles. And I’d dare say that MOST Christains have NEVER read the whole Bible, much less outside of church or only when God has “let bad things happen to them”. You see.Baptists never “came out of the Roman Catholic Church” as we were never in it to begin with.

Too much TV for most of you honestly, not enough study of the important things in this life. Truly, I have many friends saved in all kinds of Christian denominations. As for me, the Holy Spirit led me to my beliefs through BIBLE READING!!.and only after 15 years did I hear about an IFB church, the first of which I left and the current one I don’t agree with everything my pastor does but I know his stance on God’s word and I agree with that. I’m sure The LORD doesn’t need or require mankind’s assistance with preserving His written word.

That is why the KJV is the ONLY non-copywrighted Bible in the world. If it really is God’s word it should be free, don’t you agree? Wearing skirts, abstaining from alcohol, not condoning homosexuality, turning off the idiot box or just living a seperated and peculiar life are not going to get you into heaven.

But they are a measure of your personal obedinece to God based upon the guidlines given to YOU from God. Again, He gives you the choice, some will barely make it and some will shine like the stars.

I myself am an IFB member of my local New Testament church. Jesus promised that they way was narrow, not hard. (Check your Bible version) Gail Riplinger PHD Harvard and Cambridge educated scholar has discovered the KJV reads at a lower grade level than all other versions and has a built in dictionarysound like OH I DONT KNOW A MIRALCE??!! In the end many will depart from the faith and give credence to the duplicit doctrine of devils and aid in the formation of a one world church. A feel good place where everything is always somebody else’s fault. But someady our protests will someday sound stangley familiar to words spoken in the past”But God the WOMAN made me do itBut God the SERPENTmade me do it.HILARIOUS!!

Nothing changes in our sinful nature. Good thing God’s word doesn’t change either. No need to debate, I’ll let God do the fighting.

If your uncomfortable with my comment, why? Is it because not not so secretly you watch TV programs you would be afraid to watch with Jesus in the room? Because you drink to excess where the Bible COMMANDS YOU NOT TO drink wine at all (By the way wine was not alcoholic, it was a small ammount used to purify dirty water or grape juice.fact look it up.oh wait you’d have to turn off the TV for a while right?)? Is it because you use God’s name as a curse word? You would rather do ANYTHING but read His word? Your too afraid to stand up and witness to your friends, your children and strangers who will someday cry out to you “Why didn’t you tell me about Jesus?”?

Is it because you think evolution is true, a stupid unprovable, state sponsored religion that even scientists secretly admit is a theory? Is it because you think that DEEDS will get you to Heaven, or maybe it’s because your pride (and who is the father of pride?) has allowed you to forget that I am like Paul, CHIEF AMONG SINNERS, yet I hope to be humbled enough to try to submit to God and his commandments.

I am that “Christian dude” who comes to your house because the “mainstream Christians” are afraid of offending people. THAT is why the JW’s and Mormons and Muslims are growing and we are shrinking. What Atheist wants to be a part of a church on a Sunday that says they honor God then walk, talk and act like them during the week. I don’t blame themat least they are honest about their lack of faith. And even though I fail constantly at being the man He wants me to be, I still try to do God’s will, not twist it into some disgusting, perverted man-made lie to suit my 21st cntury lifestyle.

I don’t care if you EVER go to my church, really I don’t.I want you to get saved.and if your saved and your not doing much for The LORD I want to make you uncomfortable. I just hope you see yourself in the LIGHT OF GOD’s WORD and see that you’ like me are found wanting.

EVERY WORD IN THE KJV IS TRUE AND IS OF NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATIONTHEREFORE IT IS LITERAL!!!! That’s is why you are scared, scared like Paul was. Why don’t you “Think for yourself, independently.” Stop asking your pastor or your friend or Oprah what you should think and ask God!!! Do you really believe in Him or not?

Because if you are offended by the TRUTH that’s your problem. That’s why it’s called the TRUTH because it let’s you know that you ain’t got it. @ Christian This is not just one pastor.

I have heard thousands of stories of the power hungry “pastors” in the IFB churches. We nearly lost our daughter to suicide because of the evil things that were going on and we could never get to the bottom of it until a week before we left.

We have been out for 13 months now and we are still a mess from it. Why do you want to argue with all of us about the wickedness that goes on, do you think we are all making it up.

I can see you have been trained to attack anyone who says anything about the IFB. There is some really bad stuff going on in this group. Rape, child molestation, and child abuse and they cover up for each other in the name of God. I don’t think so. If you love the IFB have at it but stop making comments to victims who have been hurt and abused enough.

That is exactly what you are doing. Go somewhere that is for you. We are here because I faith and our lives have been shattered and like I said in my first post unless you go through it you will never, ever know what we are dealing with.

You truly are a IFB. By exposing the evil that goes on does NOT hurt the name of God but shines light into the darkness. So if you love the IFB fine but leave those alone that have already been hurt by people like you. You do not have a clue.

If I sent you my full story you would not believe it. My question to all IFB that come on here and other forums dealing with this wickedness. WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT THE IFB NAME AND NOT YOUR LORD AND SAVIORS NAME????

Christ would be rebuking these wicked men just like he did the Pharisees. If you don’t post this I understand but I am tired of people thinking this is nothing and they are sometimes even getting away with murder.

Christian – Can you attend Sunday worship service in jeans and a t-shirt? Are you allowed to listen to christian contempory music? Checkers Buddy Yahoo Serial Number more.

Can your girlfriend/wife wear pants to church? Could you have a glass of wine with your meal, if you were dining out with your pastor? Is tithing mandatory to be a deacon? Is attendance at church every time the door is open an indication of someone’s spirituality? Have you ever disagreed with your pastor about anything? How was that received?

You see most of the above are dictated by the IFB’s, you may say you agree with them, but do you? Not one of these is explicitly covered in scriptures, these are a matter of personal preference or conviction, but most of these are taught as absolutes in the IFB. Please read through this site you will see similar stories from people all over the country that have similar tales of how they were abused by their churches/pastors. I do wish you well.